Ottoman Guns

[Rudyard]

 

[Many Klatch]

Did you build those? Looks like something you'd do. Nice pieces. How about a description, I don't know a thing about guns from the East

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Many Klatch. There a mixed bag the red one with bone inlays used an old lock & barrel hunted with it many time before I finished the inlays ,
Ditto the pale unfinished one above. The flintlock is orig Turkish as is Barrel but stocked in a later style .Forth up is Algerian Mookhala that has a story. I picked up the lock at my first Eastern RV at the first Shawnee( Crabs.) I bought two off a blanket. I had to make the Battery & bridle/feather spring cover every bone inlay was gone bar the two in the tang area the stock was deemed junk no barrel but I fitted an original I had . extended to shattered fore end & made the bands plus inletting all the lost bone inlay in the orig crude style .it had no lock but I found the ex blanket one was close enough .
The Fishtail stock was thrown away, robbed of its 63 Springfield rifle barrel & lock (Evidently rejected surplus Belgium parts or guns that the Morrocans restocked not liking the' Funny shapes' of the S' field stock(.I like that reality check !) But I was given a section of S Field barrel sans breech likewise robbed for restoreing . Well John Hakes had a Belgium lock flint made up to fit the surplus S, Fields for the Africa trade but unused unused John used to seek out such goodies while serving as a Soldier .
So I wedded it all together extended the fore end & made all the bands bar the iron one .Took it pig hunting, like you would. The Top rifle is a 290 cal Baltic bird rifle with cock in the Baltic style on a Siler lock look at the much increased throw of the cock ( Not pictured but will do so ) The two brass boxes are for cartridges I believe . There is another Turkish carbine But could'nt put my hand on it . I sort of like these guns . Cheers Rudyard / Lt Mork

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

That's a great looking collection !!! And interesting stories to go along with them. I also tend to like these guns. We are in a very small minority LOL Shooting these guns is a hoot. But the one issue I find difficult is the short LOP with the stocks. They seem to average between 11 and 12 inches. People in general were of smaller stature during that period, and likely even smaller in the Eastern regions. Here is my Algerian shooter. Really chews up flints quick. LOL

Thanks again for posting.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Rick . Your Mookahla (however its spelt) looks well similar if rather better than my own MUCH restored example The cover plate that fits into the feather spring gave me fits but I got it in the end . Glen Bow museum in Calgary had two nice examples high end pieces belonging an exile Rebel ? leader who was billeted with Marshall Soult from memory but I can check my notes . I suppose he could be called a political prisoner so had his possessions with him and lived in style . There is a town of that name in the Gulf not sure if any link . For those unfamiliar with the lock it has but Full cock but the hook like dog catch provides the safety & the spring impels the catch away on drawing the cock beyound its grip & into full bent. Not supprizeing yours eats flints !. The trigger pulls do tend to be less. But I followed that except the second up pale Sycamore curly wood the band being ebony , never got further .Its our fault we are too well fed !'. La Bes' viz (' No evil'. It translates as ' its cool' more or less . if written it looks like 2525 linked . So I was told so I sign mine with that . One barrel I own has a calligraphy The door man at Glenbow translated as ' The work of Acmed' , &' Aid and support come from God ,Victory is near ' Though the Islamic world gets a bad press I never found an individual I didn't get on with .given chance .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cositrike]

Dear Many Klatch. There a mixed bag the red one with bone inlays used an old lock & barrel hunted with it many time before I finished the inlays ,
Ditto the pale unfinished one above. The flintlock is orig Turkish as is Barrel but stocked in a later style .Forth up is Algerian Mookhala that has a story. I picked up the lock at my first Eastern RV at the first Shawnee( Crabs.) I bought two off a blanket. I had to make the Battery & bridle/feather spring cover every bone inlay was gone bar the two in the tang area the stock was deemed junk no barrel but I fitted an original I had . extended to shattered fore end & made the bands plus inletting all the lost bone inlay in the orig crude style .it had no lock but I found the ex blanket one was close enough .
The Fishtail stock was thrown away, robbed of its 63 Springfield rifle barrel & lock (Evidently rejected surplus Belgium parts or guns that the Morrocans restocked not liking the' Funny shapes' of the S' field stock(.I like that reality check !) But I was given a section of S Field barrel sans breech likewise robbed for restoreing . Well John Hakes had a Belgium lock flint made up to fit the surplus S, Fields for the Africa trade but unused unused John used to seek out such goodies while serving as a Soldier .
So I wedded it all together extended the fore end & made all the bands bar the iron one .Took it pig hunting, like you would. The Top rifle is a 290 cal Baltic bird rifle with cock in the Baltic style on a Siler lock look at the much increased throw of the cock ( Not pictured but will do so ) The two brass boxes are for cartridges I believe . There is another Turkish carbine But could'nt put my hand on it . I sort of like these guns . Cheers Rudyard / Lt Mork

Lovely work Maurice

 

[Rudyard]

More locks

 

[stecal]

very cool collection. I had a vague idea to try and copy a Shishane rifle in my collection. I wish I could find original "junk" barrels and miquelet locks like you have. I suspect a golden age of finding those super cheap has passed by.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Stecal

These guns have never had a big following. Especially in North America with no history associated with them. Most of the collectors of Eastern arms are into the blades and armour. Consequently, they have never brought the prices that their European counterparts do. There is simply less collectors for the guns. The one exception are Caucasian guns. Their prices at auction still remain high. I believe this is due to collectors in Russia and the Ukraine areas buying them back up, aftem the collapse of the Soviet Union. Of course, I'm just speculating.
I can remember when Dealers would only take them on consignment due to any interest beyond the decoration. But I have noticed pricing has gone up during the last 7-8 years.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

Thanks for the additional photos. I am really enjoying this Thread you started.
Those brass cartridge boxes are also interesting. I've speculated these little brass containers were mostly used in conjunction with the flint horse pistols. A few years ago I tried an experiment. I made up some pre-formed, twisted paper loads and placed them vertically in the container. The container holds about 5 rounds. I then strapped the container around my waist with a belt that fit the slot on the rear. I then took a separate loading rod and suspended it around my neck with a throng. All similar to what I believe they did back in the period. My purpose was to see how fast the pistol could be loaded/re-loaded. To my surprise, the pistol could be loaded and reloaded each time in well less than a minute. And this, my first try. I held the pistol in my left hand at half-cock. I then flipped the little lid up on the brass container with my right thumb and grabbed a cartridge. I tore off one end and primed the pan first (which we don't do today for safety reasons). Then inserted the rest of the paper and ball in the muzzle and rammed it home with ramrod already in immediate grasp. I could see with some practice this could realistically be done in about half a minute. Retrieving a cartridge from the brass container was actually easier and faster than a leather pouch with a flap. So, while the containers may look odd at first, they seem quite effective. Here are my two containers. While the decoration varies greatly, every one I've seen are the same size. They each hold about 5 rounds.

Rick

 

[stecal]

Hi Stecal

These guns have never had a big following. Especially in North America with no history associated with them. Most of the collectors of Eastern arms are into the blades and armour. Consequently, they have never brought the prices that their European counterparts do. There is simply less collectors for the guns. The one exception are Caucasian guns. Their prices at auction still remain high. I believe this is due to collectors in Russia and the Ukraine areas buying them back up, aftem the collapse of the Soviet Union. Of course, I'm just speculating.
I can remember when Dealers would only take them on consignment due to any interest beyond the decoration. But I have noticed pricing has gone up during the last 7-8 years.

Rick

I've been inspired by your posts and have aquired a few original Ottoman/Balkan rifles now. I've always had an interest in Ottoman turkish history. Even looking at Spanish miquelets now. A long time ago in the 90's a friend gave me a book, "Spanish Bluecoats: The Catalonian Volunteers in Northwestern New Spain 1767-1810" , that inspired an interest in miquelet Escopeta rifles as well. I was never a sword guy.

 

[Rudyard]

While the pics quality is vile . I did manage to put up 5 hitherto unsent pics . The Baltic lock showing its at rest, half, & full position of the cock with the throw far more than the normal S shaped cock While the short falling cock was deemed a plus . It wasn't as good a plan as the longer throw of earlier styles with a larger shallower pan such a the Davis Twigg . & Silers while esteemed by many had a poor clearance at half & a full cock not as long a throw as it aught & needing a specific flint for it . This might now be remedied by the emperor of lock mechanics Jim chambers who took it over & improuved it .But I've not had one to say . The only other pic of note might be the reverse side of the inlayed Turko / Persian ? carbine I got up of old barrel & lock . The Baltic side plate dragon only Looks like a trade gun Dragon because it IS one ! if played with a bit .Thought the ruby eye looked OK.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Rick & Stecal . I find your posts & Stecals very interesting .Whats not to like ? Brilliant stuff despite my hopeless pics. We cant all be into long rifles & Hawkens . Ive made them but prefer weird ethnalogical stuff Like Nigerian Foo Foo guns or Cape Dutch Voortreker muskets The latter saw more action than the wild west ! but few consider them ..I guess we suffer from Emagination and" Boldly go where no man in his right mind would even think of boldly going " ( To paraphrase William Shattner' s' Star Trek '.Though Ime not a trecky but there are some noted Arms related figures that are . Your test was interesting some of the original owners probably never went out without wearing their guns ( You know its a rough niebour hood when 10 year olds carry rifles and even the Muggers have to go out in pairs ). Houses in Pesharwar have no ground floor opening other than a stout door & opposeing outworks so they can give downward flanking fire .Which no doubt supports the reason these guns turn up in very worn state as a general rule .
I mean no gentleman would go out with his small sword in 18c London so its the same thing .Its true the Russians are buying up their ethnic stuff . I bought my two boxes in Virginia but had to match the going rate .. However there is hope for you Stecal as most still regard any such guns as decore junk .And barrels are about If keen eyes like Pukka's (Pukka Bundook ) bid to get them . There was a gentleman Lived in Bondurant Wy made them 30 years ago Sam Senco if I recall correctly same time as I picked the Mookala lock up at the Shawnee R'vous (He was at the Second Shawnee ' Trolls' one ) Bluecoats Sound like Catalan Gerrillas allways was a hot spot still is . I made an Escopeta I was given a belt hook for one & I had a tollerable Algerian Miguelet lock so I wed them into gun with an old 16 bore barrel Border guard style affair seemed fitting use for the belt hook . Incidently most of their stuff was smooth but I've seen exellent Spanish percussion rifles obviously later . I see you refer to New Spain that's new area to me . Will try post a pic for you both . More anon
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

Rudyard, wonderful work! I'm looking for a nice (cheap) blank to carve a new stock for my Shishane, just so I wont have to worry about opening up the cracks ive fixed.
Ricky, I believe you are right about the cartridge boxes (palaskas) being used for the pistols. Though I have not examined any in person. And I have had a difficult time finding examples of original paper cartridges from the region.
Stecal, I too have a huge interest in these Ottoman styled guns but have until a few weeks back been able to find one for sale that was less than $3000! Original barrels and locks can still be had for pretty cheap in Bulgaria where many reenactors build their own from existing parts. I've been 3 times in the last 2 years but mostly looking for Krnka rifles.

 

[cyten]

also, I found an interesting piece that is marked by a maker in Vienna

 

[Rudyard]

'Wow' ! Seems appropriate Beautiful example seems the Barrel is Austrian & the stocking Turkish . Usually the other way round but great piece . Good to learn there are Re enactors over there & why not they came from Russia to 'Do ' Waterloo in 95 .What a great World it would be if Politition's
's didn't stick their oar in every where ,
Regards Rudyard

 

[BillinOregon]

Thanking you gentlemen for a wonderful thread on underappreciated firearms.

 

[Rudyard]

Pleased to be interesting for you Bill I appreciate the mention .Re the restocking Maple seems to be a preffererd choice ( Or Sycamore as its called or related too in Europe ) and it commonly has the curly grain so any blank should be about . Saw mills, wood yards or cabinet makers .might find you a suitable bit I found that if you ask in the office they likely will tell you we have none listed but ask the lads in the yard they have said " We only have this bit and due to shakes its not perfect " but the shapes we want are often either side of the condemning shakes (Splits , natural warpage ) worked for me and worth a try the Wheellock & a long rifle & other guns cost me $12 Canadian as the seller considered the long blank of maple unsuited for a mantle piece . and there's still two good stocks in the remainder plus pistols. Regards Rudyard

 

[wulf1928]

View attachment 34326

What would a lock like the third one sell for. Afgan lock only? I made on and think about selling it.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Wulf !!!! Great to hear from you again. Are you talking about the third gun - from the right ? By the way, I still have photos of your stuff in my library if you want me to post anything.

Cyten: If you are looking for a new stock blank, try to find one about 3 inches thick. You'll notice the rear of the butt stocks taper wider to at least 2 1/2" Tough to find wood that thick. That rear butt section I added started with a short, 8" long piece of European walnut that was 3 1/2" thick. Got it from Wayne Dunlap. He didn't have any stock that thick, so he glued two pieces together. Worked fine for just a rear section piece. You might measure the thickness of your original stock.

Rick