Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Thanks again for posting the additional photos I've never seen before. I've added these to my library. Great find.
Ohhhh...I wish I could purchase that entire assortment of rozetki in the photo above. Especially the tiny ones in the lower right hand corner that tend to come loose and lost over the many years. Let me know if you have a source for these.

A common feature with these Ottoman long guns is the some what pentagon shape of the butt stocks. While it would look strange to Western cultures, they are actually very comfortable to shoot. Also interesting, is even with the Ottoman penchant for decorating their guns, most of these long guns were built without butt plates of any kind.

Here is my Ottoman tufuk. It was a bit of a mess when I purchased it. The barrel and lock had been changed sometime back in the period. So the tapered, octagon barrel was not a perfect fit in the stock, but close. The rear most of the butt stock was simply missing.
The stock also had a couple of period field repairs from heavy usage. But, as they say, if there's a will, there's a way. LOL
The gun was cleaned up, the lock tuned, the barrel now has a Hoyt .55 caliber smooth bore steel liner, And, a new butt stock piece added with an antique type finish. She is now ready for service again. LOL Here are some pics:

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Great Pics .I too was wondering about getting some of the rosetts? pieces Looks like theyde be easy to post & NO stupid anti gun bod could call them GUN parts . ! .Your right about the stock form they do feel fine,Ive hunted week at a time with mine if not the old one just the' got up' ones . In fact the whole design make good sense you don't need any trigger guard the half cock Pattilla Ile call it cant be dislodged save by massive violence & the Bands / Capucines are very practical . On some I make the tang serve as a false breech (Not destroying any that it had but once the bands are slid off the barrel just comes out so easy to wash out . Plus the locks generally are sure fire . This observed I rather doubt CVA & The TC like companies are going to tool up for any mass demand . But Ime ever the devils advocate sufffering as I do from' Emagination' if to offset the pluses you do have to consider the decoration that is at best rather a challenge . Ile contact Cyten as he shows plastic packets of the Rosettes my rifle has ones missing too .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

The only places I can recommend looking for the inlays is the Bulgarian website olx.bg
essentially like ebay/etsy/craigslist
I've seen them for sale there before along with barrels/stocks/locks etc
there is a member on vikingsword forum called bobi13 who makes them

 

[cyten]

Very nice restoration, Ricky! Your posts are actually what drew my attention to this board in the first place years ago seeing your miquelets and eastern arms

 

[Rudyard]

More great pics .Do some have the more rounded butt stocks as I think might be later or just reginal I' got up' a "Late" style one with flint lock & trigger guard . & years ago I owned a 58 ish bored rifled ,Damascus prominnt deep etching sort round barrel that had not only the rounded stock but sported a late looking flintlock flush flat round tailed inset lock that had a prominent rounded lower jaw as if it toyed with going to cap lock heavy rounded but plate & a rear sight that looked very 1851 Mini'e style with a long leaf . & as if to further cover the possibles it had a matchlock that needed only the serpentine head to use as a matcthlock . Trigger guard to shield the Flint lock trigger a VERY confused rifle! I do wish Ide kept it as never seen its likes since & concluded some Turkish developement thinking . Will try add a pic from an old photoe I have .
Regards do keep the old photes comeing
Rudyard

 

[cyten]

I wonder if this is the style you're speaking of? These are often attributed to coming from Iran/Persia rather than Turkey/Ottoman Emprie

 

[rickystl]

The only places I can recommend looking for the inlays is the Bulgarian website olx.bg
essentially like ebay/etsy/craigslist
I've seen them for sale there before along with barrels/stocks/locks etc
there is a member on vikingsword forum called bobi13 who ma

Thanks Cyten. I'm a member of VikingSword and will try to contact him. And, many thanks for the additional photos to add to my library.

Rick.

 

[rickystl]

I wonder if this is the style you're speaking of? These are often attributed to coming from Iran/Persia rather than Turkey/Ottoman Emprie
View attachment 147266

I was just about to mention the same as your comment, when your Post popped up. LOL And agree with it's Persian origins. The "round" butt stock design was especially popular throughout much of the Caucasus, and remained so through at least the 1880's.
Below, in the first photo is a Caucasian rifle. Probably from the early to mid 19th Century. The second photo is a genuine all Persian made smooth bore from probably the mid 18th Century. Note the round butt stocks on both.

Rudyard: Hope you can post a photo of the one you mention above. You can also email me directly with the photo and I will post on your behalf. Is this what you mean by "rounded" ? If not, please advise. There is also a butt stock design that looks more Western/European - but with rounded corners which make it look more like a paddle.

Rick

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Ricky, is that ivory on the butt of your first picture? Both rifles appeal to me, for some odd reason.
The builder caused the rosette maker to go into overtime production! And I wish The Rifle Shoppe made copies of those locks!

 

[rickystl]

Ricky, is that ivory on the butt of your first picture? Both rifles appeal to me, for some odd reason.
The builder caused the rosette maker to go into overtime production! And I wish The Rifle Shoppe made copies of those locks!

Hi Craig

That Caucasian rifle in the first photo was restored to shooting condition. It was actually missing it's ivory butt cap when I first received it So I had a new cap made from (pre-ban) genuine walrus ivory., like the originals.

Rick

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Nifty! I've used some pre-ban ivory in the past, restoring some artwork and a bit of jewelry. We ought to be adopted by an Inuit tribe in Alaska, so we can get our own ivory!
You did a great job restoring that beauty! Love that small butt, except I imagine that enhances recoil effect.

 

[Rudyard]

Yes very similar other than to lack of enlarged lower jaw of the cock with the appearance of being perhaps modified to cap lock later idea .& there is no rear sight along 1851 British Minies lines . Nor does yours have the simple built in alter to matchlock provision .But else wise very alike . It came from a gun shop in Chesterfield 18 pounds hardly cheap in the 60s But like an idiot I sold it just to buy a ropey Brown Bess for ten.
OK just recovered the photo & a scetch in my Game register that dates it 17 3 1962 price 18 pounds. I sold for 17 More relavant is the description ' 577 aprox bore flintlock rifle by Latheless maker 40" barrel 57& a 1/4 overall approx 14 pounds wieght . In the white Damascus brl 8 grouve rifling . Records 2&3/4 Drams C&H Number two
patched round ball of 576 ect( Such recording from an 16 year old !. I still keep up to this day incidently .
) The drawing & pic shows held by keys and set back for a B net Very odd all round but exists. Re the rosets looks like you & me could use them if we locate the supply I could send $ US to cover the cost & postage .I also have Walnut NZ grown English W' nut Iv'e no idea what postage might be but I used to round the edges off BC Maple and wrote the address & it reached UK just like that . Its a bit like posting a Coconut no need to wrap it up & a paper template with desired dims would much reduce the wieght I think it was Cyten needed some . Of course the anti gun stuffer upper'es will have kittens but stuff em . Though the curly maple or in Europe its called Sycomore has the nice curly grain and is a common tree .In fact I preffer it for these guns . I once got buetifull Sycomore that a tree trimer had given to a farm & they rived it for fence posts thinking the curl was from the chain saw .So I grabbed it and its made stock's over the years .Nor dose the local hardwood timber yard allways know . Tell you they don't have the sizes you want in the Office. but stroll in the yard & ask since they count planks for clear stuff but since the shapes we want are often within ' shakes 'so from the offices angle are under usefull size . But we can very often get our needs from what they reckoned ill suited sizes . Of course you might get some funny looks lugging a whopping plank on a Corporation bus but Ive done it .anyway . ( Whorst one when when got cow horns from the slaugther house . Bone still inside & put them in a bag & took the bus I mean like you would but despite the cold day the conducter opened the door as the passengers speculated on the sourse of the aroma (I cant smell ) & all the while Ime feeling rightly guilty of their discomfort. So as it was the day after Guy Fawkes day I spotted a still burning embers fire so got off found a big tin and boiled the horns up to knock out the inner bone .. A wee bit off Post but seemed an ammuseing recollection .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Ricky, my stock measures 2.25 across,I've found some blanks that are 2.5 but a little pricey. Still on the lookout. Here are some stocks in various forms of finished by some enthusiasts in Bulgaria.

Dear Cyten. You will likley follow my last posting re walnut all Ive measured ran 2 to 2&1/2 " might be a bit over .Was a tree given me so had it sawn to blanks So maybe find one to suit. The sap wood was mush but the heart was sound & its not moved in the three stocks Iv'e made so far .
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Ricky, is that ivory on the butt of your first picture? Both rifles appeal to me, for some odd reason.
The builder caused the rosette maker to go into overtime production! And I wish The Rifle Shoppe made copies of those locks!

Hi Craig

That Caucasian rifle in the first photo was restored to shooting condition. It was actually missing it's ivory butt cap when I first received it So I had a new cap made from (pre-ban) genuine walrus ivory., like the originals.

RickView attachment 147299

 

[cyten]

Great record keeping Rudyard, wish I had been more diligent in that age... and even now. Where I'm living in the southern Caucasus now, there is ZERO muzzleloading and even antiques are considered firearms, so you dont see anything of the like outside of museums. Bulgaria is definitely the best bet for these types of things, but I am unsure of when my next visit there will be. The lead i gave with the member on vikingsword forum is probably going to be the most fruitful if you can get a hold of him, i checked the olx.bg site and didnt find any rosette or stocks etc.
There is a reenactor group in Bulgaria that are very active on social media, I've reached out to but have not gotten a response. Attached are some photos they have posted. They also have a wonderful video you can watch that is in Bulgarian but very visually stimulating while featuring these rifles, their accoutrements, casting ball and firing HERE and battle reenactment with some nice production value HERE

LOOK AT THAT STOCK WORK!

 

[rickystl]

Rudyard: That cow horn story is so funny. I can picture the other people on the bus turning their heads back and forth trying to locate where that smell was coming from. LOL. Of course, that why you have to boil those horns outdoors. LOL

Cyten: Thank you so much for those colored, contemporary photos !!! Appears "Traditional" muzzle loading is alive and well in Bulgaria. The second to the last photo, the guy sitting, holding the heavily decorated stock of the Ottoman style shishane/tufuk. Imagine how long it would have taken to decorate that stock. The small table in front of him has two Albanian pistols. The long gun standing upright behind him appears to be an Albanian tanchika. And their traditional costumes look great. Too bad the group doesn't have their own website. I don't really do any social media. Then again, maybe one or two might be interested in joining this Forum Website ? With translation software being on the Internet, the language barrier is not the problem it use to be. Just thinking out loud. LOL

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Rick Yes They where speculateing it was new engine oil & so forth ..& on reflection it was funny. Recording yes every new piece & it being a game register every day out with whatever bag . I still record every shoot & load & result. With numbers to chose from you cant hope to remember what the gun did last time you shot .
There is truth in the ' Beware of a man that has one gun as he might just be able to shoot it .' More than' a few' & your' deep ending' if you don't have records . Cyten's new pics are great are they all old pieces or a mix of new . I thought you needed the Walnut . inlays yes evidently their being made .
Its another world from TC & Traditions mindset but Their people too I never saw a clear' East West 'divide they where all like us gunmakers in the Western World . Had the same needs and worked in the style wanted in their regions & times . Sort of an unplanned but still relavant brother hood. Or am I getting too poetic !. But as I think of them long dead ' I wonder if in turn some future gun smith will think the same as he (Mostly He) looks at my work & thinks the same . I made such a variety of time periods & styles he might be scratching his head a bit . Yes by all means look the inlays up Ime pretty hopeless with E gajets .
Regards Rudyard


PS My post dosnt seem to have run the one from the Register showing the curious Persian rifle maybe I didnt send it ?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

Thanks for the photo. Hmmmm. Unusual indeed. In the lower photo I see the trigger and guard to operate the flintlock. And to the rear of that, it appears to be a squeeze-type trigger that is usually associated with Eastern style matchlocks. Is there a separate serpentine to hold a match cord ? Possibly hidden in the photo behind the flint hammer ?

Rick

 

[cyten]

Rudyard, I DID need the walnut, but I relocated to Armenia a couple months ago till at least the winter. No muzzleloading here... Maybe I'll be able to work something out come December.
That definitely looks to be a Persian flintlock rifle, but that matchlock trigger is very interesting!

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard

Thanks for the photo. Hmmmm. Unusual indeed. In the lower photo I see the trigger and guard to operate the flintlock. And to the rear of that, it appears to be a squeeze-type trigger that is usually associated with Eastern style matchlocks. Is there a separate serpentine to hold a match cord ? Possibly hidden in the photo behind the flint hammer ?

Rick

Dear Rick & Cyten .The matchlock lever front part had a hole where I presume the Serpantine ' Jaws' might fit into as wanted since you would have to cock or remove the cock lest it got in the way its been 60 odd years since I last saw it so I may have got the fixing details for the separate serpentine 'Head ' which I never had might have been for the Fungus coal type. ? I was 16 not too bad a memory considering . I evidently shot it must see if I recorded the group. I did record the load. What strook me the most was its relief figured Damascus barrel & the c1850s rear sight . & I kicked myself for parting with it but I was just a lad. Dear Cyten OK re wood I looked up the sights WOW & we think WE do re enactments I watched the lot. if couldnt stop the over powering folk singing part . They certainly have style dedication & Skill . Viking also useful . I once made a snap matchlock 'After' Hans Morl for Mr Tromner as he wanted one took it to UK had it proofed but he wouldn't respond to my letters so I took it to the US on my way back & sold it in Ohio to' Smoke & Fire News' Editor . Small World.
Regards Rudyard