Oh my ... want to double your initial investment? 
Ottoman Guns
- Thread starter Rudyard
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I admit, it's tempting to have something built with this barrel. But no plans. Already have too many other projects. LOL
I've never had the heart to send photos back to the seller showing what he actually sold me and thanking him.
Rick
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"Some Kubur pistols, Dag bluderbus, Shishane carbines, Palaska cartridge boxes, powder containers, and Dzeferdar on display at the Hisart Museum in turkey"
Cyten: I envy the locations and museums/displays you have been to visit. Just great. Thank goodness for modern photography. LOL
Rick
Cyten: I envy the locations and museums/displays you have been to visit. Just great. Thank goodness for modern photography. LOL
Rick
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I'm keeping it. LOL It's one of those situations where the story behind the object is as good as the object.Oh my ... want to double your initial investment?
Rick
Most folks have to choose between having toys at home or hitting the road, a lucky few get to do both. I'm still on the road, hoping to accumulate the toys later!
He'll never put you onto anything else if you ever showed him the treasure he gave you!
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Wow such goodies ! Ive been turned about by curious' Pre Flintock' getting late flint locks getting into the' Pre Flint' Odd .But its slowed my replies Re pronounciation thank you . With so diverse a grouping Ime sure each region had differing names to some extent I have a short Smoothbore brl 28" has been a fine Brl but had the grinding an percussioning done at it . Still will mate it with a suitable lock at some stage . That long barrel is nice the Poncions are very Spanish even to the fler De Lisle 's But the Scipt engraveing ' nails it' as Border Italion inc its toe lock the dimples appear to by punched 'Keys" to grip the gold overlay which Ide expect will if you use gold leaf & lead might better reveal how it was first made . they are never that thick and get robbed or worn off . I have an in Itaglio reverse punch as some guns I chisled an inset & firmly pressed in it bright alluminium (Looks like Platina)and with a good blow get the raized name as well as pressing the under cut edges to spread into these undercuts & small punched teeth . But Gold leaf seems most useual . Anyway my minds not yet totally blown away so do keep the pics comeing Iv'e learned so much .
. Re trade with the Raj There was a number of Baker rifles sent to Persia but some diplomatic gaff cause Britan to Ceese Supplying them but then it was impossible to recover all the guns but they did remove all the locks so baulked the Shaz designes .
The East India Company troops held Herat & Kandahar Garrison s the Kabool Garrison was obliged to retire with its force & arms but the tribal Afghans didn.t honour the terms so very few reached the garrison at Jelalabad. Dr Brydon being perhaps the first . others where ransomed later. Big Mess! but " You cant make an omlett without breaking eggs" As must be now clear Iv'e travelled through the Kyber pass from Peshawar to Kabool . still unsafe at night or was in 69. before Russia ruined its self retaining that 'Prickly & untrimmed hedge ' its all barren rocks but its has baulked many attempts to trim it .
Regards Rudyard
Regards Rudyard
. Re trade with the Raj There was a number of Baker rifles sent to Persia but some diplomatic gaff cause Britan to Ceese Supplying them but then it was impossible to recover all the guns but they did remove all the locks so baulked the Shaz designes .
The East India Company troops held Herat & Kandahar Garrison s the Kabool Garrison was obliged to retire with its force & arms but the tribal Afghans didn.t honour the terms so very few reached the garrison at Jelalabad. Dr Brydon being perhaps the first . others where ransomed later. Big Mess! but " You cant make an omlett without breaking eggs" As must be now clear Iv'e travelled through the Kyber pass from Peshawar to Kabool . still unsafe at night or was in 69. before Russia ruined its self retaining that 'Prickly & untrimmed hedge ' its all barren rocks but its has baulked many attempts to trim it .
Regards Rudyard
Regards Rudyard
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I'm thinking a Thread on Ottoman guns would not be complete without posting the Blunderbuss Pistol. Some collectors/students refer to these guns as "knee pistols". The thinking is that they were fired from the knee while on horseback. Of course, I've never believed this. I would not fire one from my knee-cap. LOL
The miniature long gun style butt stock was likely of European origin. Spain is my best guess. Although this stock design for a pistol never caught on in Europe, it was very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. Don't really know why. Like other Ottoman guns they were built anywhere from plain to highly decorated. A couple of common features with these "Dag" pistols that I've noticed:
At least half that I've seen/examined have a sling bar and/or ring mounted on the left side. This suggests a baldric style shoulder carry.
Also, the vast majority have checkering on the wrist. You rarely see checkering on Ottoman style guns of this period. Just on these blunderbuss pistols. Of course the checkering would facilitate the grip for one-handed use. Still, curious how popular these were.
Rick
The miniature long gun style butt stock was likely of European origin. Spain is my best guess. Although this stock design for a pistol never caught on in Europe, it was very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. Don't really know why. Like other Ottoman guns they were built anywhere from plain to highly decorated. A couple of common features with these "Dag" pistols that I've noticed:
At least half that I've seen/examined have a sling bar and/or ring mounted on the left side. This suggests a baldric style shoulder carry.
Also, the vast majority have checkering on the wrist. You rarely see checkering on Ottoman style guns of this period. Just on these blunderbuss pistols. Of course the checkering would facilitate the grip for one-handed use. Still, curious how popular these were.
Rick
Very nice example, Rick! I have seen one almost exactly like it but not as ornate.
These things are a total mystery to me in how they were intended to be used. I've seen speculation they were intended for children but have never seen any photos of anyone but adults equipped with them. I'm unsure of the origin of the name "Dag" come from but it seems to be the collectors terminology of them. They were popular in the Ottoman Empire as well as the Caucasus
I've also found one that has the lock signed by a Liege maker, Guillaume Berleur who was active from 1780-1840
These things are a total mystery to me in how they were intended to be used. I've seen speculation they were intended for children but have never seen any photos of anyone but adults equipped with them. I'm unsure of the origin of the name "Dag" come from but it seems to be the collectors terminology of them. They were popular in the Ottoman Empire as well as the Caucasus
I've also found one that has the lock signed by a Liege maker, Guillaume Berleur who was active from 1780-1840
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Hi Cyten
From your last Post, third photo down: You don't often see these guns with a signed, traceable lock. But one shows up every once in a while. Note also the lock has a roller on the frizzen spring. A more common feature on latter period flintlock locks. Note too the checkering on the grip. Seems to be more common on these pistols than not. Of the remaining specimens today, most have their barrels attached to the fore stock using a single, wide barrel band. But occasionally, like mine, it is pin fastened, via European style.
In just the opposite fashion, "shoulder length" blunderbuss were popular throughout much of the West/Europe. But seemed more rare in the Eastern/Ottoman markets. I've only seen a couple.
Rick
From your last Post, third photo down: You don't often see these guns with a signed, traceable lock. But one shows up every once in a while. Note also the lock has a roller on the frizzen spring. A more common feature on latter period flintlock locks. Note too the checkering on the grip. Seems to be more common on these pistols than not. Of the remaining specimens today, most have their barrels attached to the fore stock using a single, wide barrel band. But occasionally, like mine, it is pin fastened, via European style.
In just the opposite fashion, "shoulder length" blunderbuss were popular throughout much of the West/Europe. But seemed more rare in the Eastern/Ottoman markets. I've only seen a couple.
Rick
I agree it is a rare occurrence to find an actual signed (european) lock. Most have the random greek or latin letters in a decorative manner.
A Jean-Leon Gerome painting depicting Turkish & Albanian mercenaries casting lead balls in a cafe in Cairo. Albanian man in the background can be seen dancing with his Tanchica, man in the foreground has a Dzeferdar slung over his back.
[Cafe House, Cairo, Casting Bullets, 1884]
An an original bullet mold
A G. Sturm painting of a Shishane [Albanian Farmer with Rifle, 1894]
A Johann Hermann Kretzschmer painting of an Arab with a Boyliya rifle.
[Guerrier fumant le Chibouk, 1845]
The Boyliya looks similar to this one, minus the fabric wrist wrap.
[Cafe House, Cairo, Casting Bullets, 1884]
An an original bullet mold
A G. Sturm painting of a Shishane [Albanian Farmer with Rifle, 1894]
A Johann Hermann Kretzschmer painting of an Arab with a Boyliya rifle.
[Guerrier fumant le Chibouk, 1845]
The Boyliya looks similar to this one, minus the fabric wrist wrap.
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Gorgeous example of a Shishane with contrasting wood, dyed bone or horn muzzle cap, and long range rear sight. I'm headed to Turkey in a couple weeks and hope to find some interesting things to see and possibly acquire
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Hi Cyten
More great photos. Thanks for posting.
Although I've held many examples, the Boyliya is one long gun I do not have in my collection. It has somehow escaped my ownership over the years. The miquelet locks on most of the Boyliyas are often referred to by collectors as the Bulgarian lock. They are built similar to other Balkan style locks of the period. But they have an unusual shaped hammer. Many of the locks for these guns show up with brass or other decorative overlay. Here is a one of those locks from my collection. It needs cleaning, and is in only fair condition, but all complete and still in working order. Note the shape of the hammer.
Rick
More great photos. Thanks for posting.
Although I've held many examples, the Boyliya is one long gun I do not have in my collection. It has somehow escaped my ownership over the years. The miquelet locks on most of the Boyliyas are often referred to by collectors as the Bulgarian lock. They are built similar to other Balkan style locks of the period. But they have an unusual shaped hammer. Many of the locks for these guns show up with brass or other decorative overlay. Here is a one of those locks from my collection. It needs cleaning, and is in only fair condition, but all complete and still in working order. Note the shape of the hammer.
Rick
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That is a beautiful Sishane. The contrasting wood on the butt stock seems common and intentional. Occasionally, one of these guns today will turn up with the rear butt section of wood missing. This missing wood made the length of pull (LOP) comically short. But for some reason, others in the 20th Century thought they were made this way to shoot from the cheek, or something. I would always argue with them that it made no sense. Especially from a shooters perspective.
When I first received my Tufuk, it was missing this rear section of wood. Later, someone screwed a brass butt plate over the short stock not realizing what they were doing. So the brass plate was removed exposing the two holes where a rear section originally existed and was attached with two long nails and glue. I used a large piece of European walnut and had a pro make and attach the new wood to equal a 13.5" LOP. With no butt cap, as per the originals. See before and after photos below..
Rick
When I first received my Tufuk, it was missing this rear section of wood. Later, someone screwed a brass butt plate over the short stock not realizing what they were doing. So the brass plate was removed exposing the two holes where a rear section originally existed and was attached with two long nails and glue. I used a large piece of European walnut and had a pro make and attach the new wood to equal a 13.5" LOP. With no butt cap, as per the originals. See before and after photos below..
Rick
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Hi Cyten
On your last photo group above: Note the "green" colored nose cap. Occasionally, on Ottoman and Caucasian guns you see the bone/ivory inlays dyed green. While other inlays, on the same gun, are left in the white. I've never understoof the reason for the green dye. Any ideas ?
Rick
On your last photo group above: Note the "green" colored nose cap. Occasionally, on Ottoman and Caucasian guns you see the bone/ivory inlays dyed green. While other inlays, on the same gun, are left in the white. I've never understoof the reason for the green dye. Any ideas ?
Rick
The Bulgarian lock certainly is distinguishable from others in the region. Very nice example you have, I'm amazed you have found all these different locks in the USA. There is a town in Bulgaria called Sliven that was a huge gun making center in Ottoman times, obviously they are famous for their Boyliya rifles but also made Shishane, Tanchica, etc.
Here is a photo of what appears to be a Shishane with a Bulgarian style lock, and a trigger guard
Trigger guards are definitely not the norm for this region but they did pop up rarely. Some collectors believe they are a 20th century addition by folks who believe they were missing (like your Tufek brass butt cap) but some period photos like this one dispel that.
Even stranger and more rare is a conventional western style trigger and trigger guard, have never seen in person but in two photos, both from Bulgaria. The first of a revolutionary named Todor Dimitrov Nestorov who died in the Anti Ottoman Uprising of 1876. Note the faint detail of the trigger and guard like that of any other western European gun and his attire that looks to be a Greek or Albanian Fustanella (skirt)
The second being Ivan Zerdaliyski, another Bulgarian revolutionary with a percussion conversion miquelet and western style trigger and guard
Here is a photo of what appears to be a Shishane with a Bulgarian style lock, and a trigger guard
Trigger guards are definitely not the norm for this region but they did pop up rarely. Some collectors believe they are a 20th century addition by folks who believe they were missing (like your Tufek brass butt cap) but some period photos like this one dispel that.
Even stranger and more rare is a conventional western style trigger and trigger guard, have never seen in person but in two photos, both from Bulgaria. The first of a revolutionary named Todor Dimitrov Nestorov who died in the Anti Ottoman Uprising of 1876. Note the faint detail of the trigger and guard like that of any other western European gun and his attire that looks to be a Greek or Albanian Fustanella (skirt)
The second being Ivan Zerdaliyski, another Bulgarian revolutionary with a percussion conversion miquelet and western style trigger and guard
I have seen a lot of speculation on whether guns like yours were in fact made to have such a short stock or missing the second part. I'm in agreeance with you that it was missing in fact and that they all had this missing. For many, it is a much easier repair to tack on a sheet of brass, leather, etc than to attach a piece of wood. Great job with yours by the way, Rick!
Aside from the folks in Bulgaria, I know of only one man who does any restoration of these guns in Turkey
It's so interesting about the multiple holes drilled in the barrel channel, I suppose it was to help with making the ramrod channel since they are fully enclosed on the outside of the stock, mine has these holes as well, does yours?
The nightmare of removing and replacing all those rozetki...
And as to the question on the green dyed bone/ivory. The only explanation I can come up with other than just aesthetics, is that green is a symbol of Islam. In the Ottoman Empire it was forbidden for Christians to own/possess guns or even mount a horse! But obviously, like all gun control, this never worked. That being said, the only legal clients of the gun makers would be Muslims, so I can see them wanting some green on the gun to accent the religious inscriptions that are often found on them too.
Aside from the folks in Bulgaria, I know of only one man who does any restoration of these guns in Turkey
It's so interesting about the multiple holes drilled in the barrel channel, I suppose it was to help with making the ramrod channel since they are fully enclosed on the outside of the stock, mine has these holes as well, does yours?
The nightmare of removing and replacing all those rozetki...
And as to the question on the green dyed bone/ivory. The only explanation I can come up with other than just aesthetics, is that green is a symbol of Islam. In the Ottoman Empire it was forbidden for Christians to own/possess guns or even mount a horse! But obviously, like all gun control, this never worked. That being said, the only legal clients of the gun makers would be Muslims, so I can see them wanting some green on the gun to accent the religious inscriptions that are often found on them too.
