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I reached out to him a few times right before I went to Turkey last month but got nothing back, hope you have better luck.


That's very interesting. I am currently living in Armenia, in a region called Zeytun! I have not seen this type of gun anywhere in Armenia, the very few arms in museums here are more of the typical Shishane type. Here is an illustration of "a typical man from Zeytun" ca.1870's
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There was a Zeytun in Southeastern Turkey, apparently, in what is now Kahramanmaraş. Today it's called Süleymanlı. As far as I know the Zeytuni rifles were originally built there. Then again, I rely solely on oral history here regarding the rifles, and I've heard many a tall tale first hand regarding the history of antiques, so I'd approach this information with a tiny pinch of salt.
 
Yes, Ricky I still have that lock for sale. I am asking $400 for it. Did I send you a pic of it ? If you remember I never could post pics.
 
Speaking of Zeytun, here's what I found in the Feriköy Flea Market today: A Zeytuni. It was a svelte piece, with a very thin stock, but given its condition and cost, I decided to pass (I was also told that reproductions are common, another reason not to risk things). After Feriköy, a trip to Çukurcuma led me to find an aged, small shishane-type miquelet carbine with a shattered forend, but it wasn't exactly out of the ordinary so I did not take any photos. I'll revisit Çukurcuma during the week, as most of the shops were closed for the day. Perhaps I'll find some neat stuff.
 

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Hi Barud

Thanks for the photo. What an assortment. It takes a careful eye to be able to detect original type pieces with later made tourist type items. The average tourist would not know the difference. Good luck on your search. Please post more pics if you can.

Rick
 
After looking through this thread and some online collections, were the main infantry muskets of the Ottoman army highly decorated, or is it just survivorship bias those survive? Countries that tend to have highly decorated matchlocks for combat use, like India and Japan, look to still have a somewhat undecorated example for basic troops. Because the Ottoman infantry force (janissaries) were considered an elite force, opposed to something like Ashigaru, would this be a reason that only decorated muskets exist?
 
were the TURK'S, premier gun makers back in the day?
Dear Toot I can't say much re the decorated v plainer issue situation .Though it seems many of these troops where localized on Clan or otherwise ethnic lines . Sort of like your National guard only the kit was private and probably kept the peace in unstable regions so decorated seems a personal choice . As to the quality of these guns I doubt they were any inferior to Western arms bought in a similar manner .& by and large they seem perfectly adequate and generally reliable locks though many guns seem to be so used over the owners life time that they appear to be worn out & unfit for purpose becoming oft as not just part of the National costume or dress you might say .
' Turks' is a very broad brush there being many similar Ethnic regions related too in religion & culture but beyound the borders of Turky like the all the Balkans & various & diverse ' Khanates ' I think it's true to say many Nations made excellent guns but they also made cheaper offerings & out right rubbish .as well .Gunmakers then & now catered to all markets ." How long is a piece of string ? How deep are your pockets !"
Regards Rudyard
 
Rudyard, thank you for the reply to my question. I now have a better understanding of the history of the ETHNIC groups and the weapons that they carried. in a lot of photos' of them they seem to all carry an over abundance of ammo slung on there bodies. I guess that you can't have to much ammo when you go to a gun fight? toot.
 
After looking through this thread and some online collections, were the main infantry muskets of the Ottoman army highly decorated, or is it just survivorship bias those survive? Countries that tend to have highly decorated matchlocks for combat use, like India and Japan, look to still have a somewhat undecorated example for basic troops. Because the Ottoman infantry force (janissaries) were considered an elite force, opposed to something like Ashigaru, would this be a reason that only decorated muskets exist?
Probably the latter. I've read more than one Ottoman report of armoury officials complaining about musketmen (not all Ottoman musketmen were Janissaries, mind you, and even if so, by the time firearms became commonplace in the hands of Ottoman soldiers, the Janissaries were no longer the elite that Westerners know them as) selling their state-issued musket off to Anatolia (where it went to rebel hands), and using that money to get themselves custom, embellished guns. State-issue muskets were not well liked by troops, but whether they had reason to complain about its quality or were just showing signs of praetorian hubris is up for debate.

That, and the Ottoman musket never evolved as the European musket did, so most matchlock examples were probably easily converted to miquelets at some point, with no change to the stock other than the attachment of the new lock. The Royal Armouries in Leeds, England, and either the State Hermitage Museum or the Kremlin Museum in Russia have examples of less embellished Ottoman muskets, and honestly, they don't look like much, save their barrels:
 

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Probably the latter. I've read more than one Ottoman report of armoury officials complaining about musketmen (not just Janissaries, mind you, and even if so, by the time firearms became commonplace in the hands of Ottoman soldiers, the Janissaries were no longer the elite that Westerners know them as) selling their state-issued musket off to Anatolia (where it went to rebel hands), and using that money to get themselves custom, embellished guns. State issue muskets not well liked by troops, but whether they had reason to complain about its quality or were just showing signs of praetorian hubris is up for debate.

That, and the Ottoman musket never evolved as the European musket did, so most matchlock examples were probably easily converted to miquelets at some point, with no change to the stock other than the attachment of the new lock. The Royal Armouries in Leeds, England, and either the State Hermitage Museum or the Kremlin Museum in Russia have examples of less embellished Ottoman muskets, and honestly, they don't look like much, save their barrels:
Barud, thanks for a super informative response. My quick research into the janissaries had left me confused about their reputation in the period where they were still making territorial gains in Europe, but also having their constant mutinies and coups.

I was aware of the Royal Armouries’s example, but the Kremlin example is exactly what I was curious about, thank you!
 
were the TURK'S, premier gun makers back in the day?
The Turks, generally, were considered gun makers during this time. But much of the gun making was farmed out to the many gun making centers throughout the Balkans. In fact, often entire towns and villages were conscripted to make arms. Often under contract for the Ottoman Empire. Likely, many guns found their way to both friend and foe alike. LOL (Sort of reminds me of how the British Enfield rifle was sold to both North and South during our U.S. Civil War).
During this period, it seems the Turks were best known for their barrel making. Even high quality European sporting guns occasionally show up with Turkish made barrels. I've seen a few myself.
The amount of decoration on their gun stocks and barrels is what fascinates many gun enthusiasts today. You can find guns that are somewhat plain (like the two matchlocks posted above), to highly decorated presentation-style guns, and all points in between. The reason for the quality and amount of decoration on the various guns could signify rank/privilege within the Empire or personal family. I would guess the plainer guns would have been issued by the Empire more en mass to their various troops and mercenaries. These guns being used and re-used in the continuous conflicts throughout the Region. That may be why most of the plain guns I've seen often show obvious signs of heavy field use. The highly decorated guns often seeing less combat and use like the many examples we see today. And then, as now, the best quality guns tend to get the best care. I've read where the decorations for the gun stocks were often made by Jewish jewelers and sold/traded.
Even during the first half of the 19th Century, when specific arsenals and early type mass production appeared in Europe, guns were still being made one at a time by hundreds of small shops throughout the Ottoman Empire.

Rick
 
I seem to recall that the use of Olive pits or shells gave a high grade of forge coal and the Kurdistan region rather than the' Damascus' barrels we call them where a specialty of the well spread not too popular Kurds .Can't recall the source but it stuck with me ,All very interesting topic. Major Noel Corry of Steeple Bumsted brought from that general region a large number of mostly well worn & often converted to percussion barrels off all qualities & conditions said to be bought from police stations confiscations He was I gather really after Persian Artillery Lugers what ever they are .Certain it is he brought tons of them back to UK. .& I've had numbers over the years and made up a lot into guns .
Regards Rudyard
 
Probably the latter. I've read more than one Ottoman report of armoury officials complaining about musketmen (not all Ottoman musketmen were Janissaries, mind you, and even if so, by the time firearms became commonplace in the hands of Ottoman soldiers, the Janissaries were no longer the elite that Westerners know them as) selling their state-issued musket off to Anatolia (where it went to rebel hands), and using that money to get themselves custom, embellished guns. State-issue muskets were not well liked by troops, but whether they had reason to complain about its quality or were just showing signs of praetorian hubris is up for debate.

That, and the Ottoman musket never evolved as the European musket did, so most matchlock examples were probably easily converted to miquelets at some point, with no change to the stock other than the attachment of the new lock. The Royal Armouries in Leeds, England, and either the State Hermitage Museum or the Kremlin Museum in Russia have examples of less embellished Ottoman muskets, and honestly, they don't look like much, save their barrels:

My rifle is very plain, but I'm unsure of it's origin/history/date

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/ottoman-balkan-miquelet.121912/
 
How common is it for this type of gun to be rifled?
I've seen more rifled than smoothbore in my personal experience. Barud probably has a better idea of this, though, the times i've been in Turkey I only saw guns in museums
 
How common is it for this type of gun to be rifled?
Depending on the Region, all the shoulder guns I've examined seem to be about 50/50 rifled versus smooth bore. When you think about it, not much different than Europe during the late 18th through the first half of the 19th Centuries. The rifled barrels all seem to have 7 or 8 groove rifling.

Rick
 
On the subject of what your "as issued" rifle looked like, I am reminded of the incredible collection at the Vienna Arsenal.
1683.jpg


These particular examples are captures from the Ottomans during the 1683 Siege of Vienna. These have relatively minimal decoration, and there are examples with none and of course the pieces of art we have come to see as well. It's interesting that you see such a consistency of stock and lock shape for hundreds of years, these curved stock guns on the ends would evolve slightly to become the Albanian Tancica/Arnautka and the Bosnian Dzeferdar.
The last time I was at this museum was 2010 when I had a passing interest and almost no knowledge on these guns, was more interested in the breechloaders, I have to get back to see these with new eyes!
 

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