Ottoman Guns

[jns]

Hi JNS. Welcome to the Forum.

Your gun is what is commonly known as an Albanian Tanchika musket. And typical of the style. (there are a couple different English spellings used). Probably from Central or Northern Albania sometime during the first half of the 19th Century. The lock is of the common Balkan style used on most of these Tanchikas. The lock is missing it's hammer and mainspring. Likely cannibalized for use on another Tanchika. Probably during the 20th Century for another collector's musket. The reason for the design of the unusual fish-tail butt stock has never really been confirmed and is still open to speculation. Unless there is a date on the gun, it's almost impossible to accurately date these muskets. As with other Ottoman period guns, their builders never left any written type documentation as compared to their European counterparts.

Interesting the gun still appears to have all of it's original barrel bands (often some or all missing). With prime lock parts missing, and some of the pearl decoration, my guess is that it would fetch maybe about $300.00USD (?)

Here is what the gun would look like if complete:

Rick

Hi Rick, many thanks for your interesting facts and information.
jns

 

[cyten]

Dear Rick . I do seem to be getting what amounts to fan mail & I have taken steps to collate & make a book of the seemingly entertaining tales . Re the Furguson Shishone I had this in my hands the barrel & action are Durs Eggs But the "funny stock' he had was doubtless deemed ungainly to Ottoman tastes . So the lock & stocking are all Ottoman or whoever had it done & used it .
I think I have still my notes taken at the time and they gave me good photos & I found one note re the ornate Toe lock Moukala given to Marshal Soult by the Heroic Algerian leader Ab Del Kadar , Soult said they got on well & hunted together when he was on Parole in Exile at Soults home in France The gun is dated 1815 Ile try add my handwritten note these where typed up by the Staff Typist Liz Hastie particularly the Dictaphone notes . when I find the Fergusson pics & notes Ile add them.
Regards Rudyard

Great stuff!

It would be wonderful if this book were translated. I do realise that reading the old Ottoman script is not a common skill these days.

Agreed! The book is for sale HERE but too rich for my blood, if someone does get it, I hope they have it translated and give us the scoop!

Printed Ottoman script is one of the easier Ottoman scripts to read, but to my understanding the language is Arabic, rather than Turkish (well, that, or my Ottoman skills have gotten rustier than I thought). I couldn't decipher it.

The book was published in Cairo, so it probably is in Arabic.

Hi guys, can anyone please tell me more about this one /also approx. value?
i am total newbie
many thanks
jns

Welcome to the forum JNS. Rick is spot on with it being a Tanchica/Arnautka. These are attributed to Albania but can be found in other parts of the Balkans and in Egypt, due to the Albanian irregular soldier force there.

 

[cyten]

The reason for the design of the unusual fish-tail butt stock has never really been confirmed and is still open to speculation.

Rick, I believe this came from wanting to make a rifle as light as possible due to the mountainous areas many of them lived in with less oxygen, similar to the slim Caucasian guns. It seems to me they started off as modifications to the original guns being imported from Italy

that would be modified to the Dzeferdar in Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro and to the Tanchica/Arnautka in Albania. I did a quick overlay of the stock designs and how they match up.

Not the clearest but I hope it gives the idea.
Rick, is that the same Tanchica you found the original load in?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten
GREAT photos to add to my library. Thanks.

Yes, agreed. It would appear that some of these guns butt stock patterns originated from Italian/Spanish guns from the 17th Century (Southern Italy being controlled by Spain during this time). Especially the Dzeferder as you mention.
And yes, keeping the weight down while carrying in the mountain regions would be desirable. But the Tanchika is especially confusing. Especially from a shooter's perspective. The long barrels tend to be muzzle-heavy. As if by design made to shoot from any type of a rest (cross-sticks, rocks, etc.) Look at this photo of one of my Tanchikas. Notice how the wrist area of the stock is typical thickness of a musket, but tapers/thins dramatically towards the butt cap. The butt cap end is just under 1" in thickness. When I shoulder the gun off-hand, I can't find a comfortable shooting position. If the barrel contained a heavy charge, it would really dig in to your shoulder. LOL
So you have extra heavy weight at the front, and extra light weight at the rear, making for poor balance. So, from a shooter's perspective, it's still a mystery to me. But the stock design persisted in Albania. So maybe I'm missing something.

Also, look at the shape of the butt stocks on the Tanchika, Dzeferder, and Jazail. Three different style butt stocks. But all three have this same tapering/thinning going from the wrist to the butt cap. I always thought this odd. My only guess was to lighten the stock and a convenience for carrying the butt stock of the gun under the arm pit during movement.

Yes!! That's the same Tanchika I found the original load in the barrel. I saved the contents of the load. That's the one I made into my shooter since it had a lighter weight barrel than most. Even with the steel liner. Shoots OK with the leather pad I made for the butt cap.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Your input is much appreciated, Rick. If only I knew where to find cheaper examples...

That gun has been an enigma for me since I first saw it (I think Rudyard posted it here in the forum before, in a thread regarding Tipu Sultan). Well, before the Ferguson was the La Chaumette, which was, as far as I know, never militarized and copied by various makers over Europe. It's perfectly possible that a La Chaumette gun or barrel made its way into the Ottoman Empire and got stocked/restocked into the shape we see today. Then again, I have no concrete basis for such a claim. If you all say that it's a Ferguson mechanism for a certainty, then my thesis will go down the drain.

Dear Barud Its definatly made from parts of a Durs Egg London maker .A sporting rifle on Fergussons improuved design of the earlier La Chaumet He wasn't a gun maker rather a designer, A Soldier who had ideas . That particular rifle had a Silver plug if I recall correctly so was a fine rifle even before the Last Owners Improvements , New stock ect , I had it in my hands So I know it's not on Le Chaumets style having the ' multy start' threaded plug as apposed to the normal screw threading . Your Thesis needn't have got wet you where on the right track .

Reawalds E gajet sounds very like mine only Ide choose Best Granity Steam coal it being more locally sourced , ( I asked the Google as to where I stuffed the coal in my E gajet ?) , But It became quite rude so I shall Not repeat it !.. Regards to you both & all especially whoever comes up with the pics and info ' Rudyard

 

[cyten]

Though extremely rare, the Ottomans did have a few wheellocks made in the 17th century. This example has a 36¾ inch, 75 caliber barrel and is marked by Kilian Zelner of Vienna/Salzburg.

Also of note, on early examples, it is not uncommon to find a vent pick compartment on the stock. Having the pick still attached is another story! This example is dated from 1690.

 

[cyten]

Also, look at the shape of the butt stocks on the Tanchika, Dzeferder, and Jazail. Three different style butt stocks. But all three have this same tapering/thinning going from the wrist to the butt cap. I always thought this odd. My only guess was to lighten the stock and a convenience for carrying the butt stock of the gun under the arm pit during movement.

Yes!! That's the same Tanchika I found the original load in the barrel. I saved the contents of the load. That's the one I made into my shooter since it had a lighter weight barrel than most. Even with the steel liner. Shoots OK with the leather pad I made for the butt cap.

Rick

How does the Tanchica compare in balance to the Caucasian guns? I've never handled an Albanian gun but the Caucasian guns I've handled were well balanced.
Did you measure the original load that came out of the barrel?

 

[rickystl]

Though extremely rare, the Ottomans did have a few wheellocks made in the 17th century. This example has a 36¾ inch, 75 caliber barrel and is marked by Kilian Zelner of Vienna/Salzburg.
View attachment 181397

Also of note, on early examples, it is not uncommon to find a vent pick compartment on the stock. Having the pick still attached is another story! This example is dated from 1690.
View attachment 181542

Yes, there are probably less than a dozen Ottoman styled wheellocks left in existence or known to be.

That is the first Shishana I've seen with the vent pick and holder mounted to the stock. Very cool. Somehow, it makes me think of the word Matchlock. LOL. Maybe this gun was originally a matchlock and later converted ? But it seems - at least with the Ottoman/Turks anyway - there adoption of the miquelet locks came rather quickly as soon as the locks became generally available. The open work trigger guard is also an indication of it's earlier dating. Very cool gun.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

How does the Tanchica compare in balance to the Caucasian guns? I've never handled an Albanian gun but the Caucasian guns I've handled were well balanced.
Did you measure the original load that came out of the barrel?

The Caucasian rifle is generally comfortable to shoot. The usually, shorter 36" or so barrels help to balance with the light weight round butt stock. But you do want a firm grip around the wrist area to help with the recoil.
The Ottoman Shishana and Tufuk are a pleasure to shoot. Even with their typically heavier barrels, they are very tapered and about 36" or less. So the balance is very good. Also, what their butt stocks lack in width, they make up for in overall circumference. The butt stocks fit the pocket of the shoulder very well which makes them comfortable to shoot.
You do see Ottoman and Caucasian shoulder guns with longer barrels (which tend to bring a premium with collectors) but not nearly as often. Most seem to have barrels less than about 40".
What I found most problematic with shooting most of these Eastern shoulder guns is their short LOP (length of pull). The LOP for today's muzzle loading shooters is probably 13.5" to 14.25". Back in the period the stature of even European men was smaller than today. And men of Eastern stature smaller yet. The LOP with many of these original Eastern shoulder guns is only 11" to 12". So it makes them somewhat cumbersome to shoot off-hand. Works better from a bench with my left hand cupped behind the butt cap. LOL

I never measured the exact amount of grains of powder in that load. Probably should have - and still can. My guess was it equaled about 60 grains. What I found interesting was the black powder did not resemble the corn meal style we see today. It looked more like cake flour.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is a neat little item accessory. An original, small priming flask. And it had a small trace of black powder inside. I believe this to be Ottoman/Turk from the engraving. The neat feature of this one is that it operates in spring-loaded plunger fashion, much the same as the modern commercial small priming flasks offered today. I've tried it out and it does indeed offer the right amount of FFFG for priming a pan. It looks old.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Yes, there are probably less than a dozen Ottoman styled wheellocks left in existence or known to be.

That is the first Shishana I've seen with the vent pick and holder mounted to the stock. Very cool. Somehow, it makes me think of the word Matchlock. LOL. Maybe this gun was originally a matchlock and later converted ? But it seems - at least with the Ottoman/Turks anyway - there adoption of the miquelet locks came rather quickly as soon as the locks became generally available. The open work trigger guard is also an indication of it's earlier dating. Very cool gun.

Rick

I've seen matchlocks as well as miquelets with the vent pick, my guess is that it was indeed a left over from the matchlocks because they are only seen on the early examples.

 

[cyten]

Here is a neat little item accessory. An original, small priming flask. And it had a small trace of black powder inside. I believe this to be Ottoman/Turk from the engraving. The neat feature of this one is that it operates in spring-loaded plunger fashion, much the same as the modern commercial small priming flasks offered today. I've tried it out and it does indeed offer the right amount of FFFG for priming a pan. It looks old.

RickView attachment 181649View attachment 181650

Very cool, Rick! I've seen a few of these online and in Turkey however, all but one were all missing the top piece. The one that still had it was broken beyond the threaded section, so just acting as a stopper.

 

[rickystl]

Very cool, Rick! I've seen a few of these online and in Turkey however, all but one were all missing the top piece. The one that still had it was broken beyond the threaded section, so just acting as a stopper.

I found this on one of the tables at the annual Antique Arms Show in Baltimore, MD a few years ago. I was surprised the plunger mechanism still worked. So, of course, I grabbed it. LOL

Rick

 

[Barud]

A Kabyle musket in a local auction house. Currently at 900 dollars. What would you guys say about its condition? From what I see it's lacking its barrel bands and that the top half of the cock is at an awkward angle. The barrel seems to have some sort of proof mark on it, perhaps Belgian. Would you folks say that it's worth bidding on? I've always wanted one of these Algerian guns but I wouldn't want to get a bad deal on them. Opinions appreciated.

 

[Rudyard]

A Kabyle musket in a local auction house. Currently at 900 dollars. What would you guys say about its condition? From what I see it's lacking its barrel bands and that the top half of the cock is at an awkward angle. The barrel seems to have some sort of proof mark on it, perhaps Belgian. Would you folks say that it's worth bidding on? I've always wanted one of these Algerian guns but I wouldn't want to get a bad deal on them. Opinions appreciated.

Dear Barud. The lock work looks good the overall may have lost some barrel length but looks savable What doe's seem odd is the top jaw is and not able to swing round unless Ime confused side ways you (It seems ) just see the rear of it But the long bit you can see should be part of the top jaw if so it dosn't take a lot of stress so should be fixable , Money wise they are not everyone's cup of tea so it might not sell if that's the consignment reserve . Ile see the picture again but it looks that way.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Barud. The lock work looks good the overall may have lost some barrel length but looks savable What doe's seem odd is the top jaw is and not able to swing round unless Ime confused side ways you (It seems ) just see the rear of it But the long bit you can see should be part of the top jaw if so it dosn't take a lot of stress so should be fixable , Money wise they are not everyone's cup of tea so it might not sell if that's the consignment reserve . Ile see the picture again but it looks that way.
Regards Rudyard

Noticing the Bruel ? in lays & the quality work Ide say its worth a punt if you can go to that they generally have the two finger grips they may be missing were it mine ide make replacement ones , it evidently was a fine gun beyond the normal run just got neglected could be attic pristine a 'sleeper ' ide be tempted myself but you have to eye ball it .I don t think you will loose on it
.Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Hi Barud

IMHO $900.00USD is a ridiculous amount to pay for this gun's condition. Not only is it missing it's barrel bands, it's missing the top jaw and screw from the hammer. The screw that is there is from some other gun. There's a big chip missing from the bone butt cap.
There are simply better examples available at considerably less cost. Are you able to receive an antique muzzle loader if shipped to your location from the USA ?
Here is what the complete lock looks like:

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Barud

IMHO $900.00USD is a ridiculous amount to pay for this gun's condition. Not only is it missing it's barrel bands, it's missing the top jaw and screw from the hammer. The screw that is there is from some other gun. There's a big chip missing from the bone butt cap.
There are simply better examples available at considerably less cost. Are you able to receive an antique muzzle loader if shipped to your location from the USA ?
Here is what the complete lock looks like:

RickView attachment 185134

Yes its 'Down' But under the surface dirt its clearly been a first rate gun .As for values Ime unaware re current ones but its been a Very nice gun top flight as they go . Rudyard

 

[Barud]

Hi Barud

IMHO $900.00USD is a ridiculous amount to pay for this gun's condition. Not only is it missing it's barrel bands, it's missing the top jaw and screw from the hammer. The screw that is there is from some other gun. There's a big chip missing from the bone butt cap.
There are simply better examples available at considerably less cost. Are you able to receive an antique muzzle loader if shipped to your location from the USA ?

Hello Rick,

I know the prices are ridiculous compared to the US, but honestly it seems like all the good pieces were exported to Europe and/or the US and now what we're left with is, well, either attic dwellers in terrible condition (pitted and/or rusted beyond all recognition), or the victim of last century's Bubba (shishanas with the barrels chopped to convert to breechloading, or with crudely made nipples welded on along with cheap or even homemade back-action percussion locks). So the prices for even the semi-intact pieces are high. Not to mention that almost all the Turkish ones are re-decorated (there's apparently an entire workshop in the Grand Bazaar dedicated to redecorating old muskets, even today) to the point that they lose all historical authenticity.

That particular one you mentioned sold for a whopping 1900 dollars, by the way. I think it's insane, but that's just how the market is. Guns that would be in the 2000-3000 dollar range in the US go upwards of 10000 dollars here.

And as for your suggestion, unfortunately not. Importation of firearms is extremely restricted, even if they are muzzleloaders (unless if you have friends in customs, but I'm not going to take that risk with international cargo).

 

[Rudyard]

Hello Rick,

I know the prices are ridiculous compared to the US, but honestly it seems like all the good pieces were exported to Europe and/or the US and now what we're left with is, well, either attic dwellers in terrible condition (pitted and/or rusted beyond all recognition), or the victim of last century's Bubba (shishanas with the barrels chopped to convert to breechloading, or with crudely made nipples welded on along with cheap or even homemade back-action percussion locks). So the prices for even the semi-intact pieces are high. Not to mention that almost all the Turkish ones are re-decorated (there's apparently an entire workshop in the Grand Bazaar dedicated to redecorating old muskets, even today) to the point that they lose all historical authenticity.

That particular one you mentioned sold for a whopping 1900 dollars, by the way. I think it's insane, but that's just how the market is. Guns that would be in the 2000-3000 dollar range in the US go upwards of 10000 dollars here.

And as for your suggestion, unfortunately not. Importation of firearms is extremely restricted, even if they are muzzleloaders (unless if you have friends in customs, but I'm not going to take that risk with international cargo).

On a gun of that quality the 'bone' would more likley be ivory . I don't know where you are located but seems the whole world is beset with anti gun left wing prats poseing as governments . We have them In NZ as well .
Regards Rudyard