Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

"HERE is a video clip from the History Channel's "Pawn Stars" that features Ottoman Blunderbuss/Knee Pistol/Tromblon/Dag however you want to call them, one of which is dated 1854. Take it as pure entertainment value."

Thanks for the video Link. The better expert he called in is Sean Rich, who owns Tortuga Trading in California. I've bought 3-4 items from Sean in the past. Nice guy. He was pretty much correct in his analysis. The one gun was surely a tourist item that he pointed out the barrel deficiency. I would go further and say the barrel was probably a casting with the crude chisel work being part of the single casting. The wire inlay on the stock also looked crude. The lock may (?) be original and repurposed to make the tourist item. Always be suspicious of the Ottoman blunderbuss pistols that have the very over-sized, trumpet shaped muzzles. I believe this was done to give the gun that "AHH" effect. It makes no sense from a shooting perspective.
The other pistol looked authentic. Sean was very gracious with his pricing estimates, in my opinion. LOL

Rick

 

[cyten]

Cyten: Your last Post #237: I wanted plainer examples to make into shooters. That way, I didn't have to worry about loosing the tiny decorations while at the gun range. Or messing with an extra nice original collectors item.
Yes, that cock on the Kariophili/Rasak does look a little like a traditional flintlock. Every once in a while you find a hint of Western influence with these guns. Actually, about 10% of the Greek Kariophili I've seen have more traditional flintlocks. While the Rasak look very similar they often have a slight more upward curve at their butt stocks. It's thought that many of these were made in Southern Albania versus Greece. Of course, there was much cross-culture between the two.

Rick

After reading Elgood, i still don’t know the difference between the Rašak and Kariophili. I suspect they are the same gun with different names in different languages.

Thanks for the video Link. The better expert he called in is Sean Rich, who owns Tortuga Trading in California. I've bought 3-4 items from Sean in the past. Nice guy. He was pretty much correct in his analysis. The one gun was surely a tourist item that he pointed out the barrel deficiency. I would go further and say the barrel was probably a casting with the crude chisel work being part of the single casting. The wire inlay on the stock also looked crude. The lock may (?) be original and repurposed to make the tourist item. Always be suspicious of the Ottoman blunderbuss pistols that have the very over-sized, trumpet shaped muzzles. I believe this was done to give the gun that "AHH" effect. It makes no sense from a shooting perspective.
The other pistol looked authentic. Sean was very gracious with his pricing estimates, in my opinion. LOL

Rick

Sean Rich is a nice guy, have met him once. His shop is very close to my hometown.
I always take any appraisals on this show from Sean and the guy from IMA with a spoonful of salt. They are often appraising items that are very similar to what they are selling in their shops and this helps them justify their prices, IMA especially.

I wanted to show a comparison of the two Turkish miquelets I have side by side

There is a pretty big difference in size and the one on the right really looks massive in comparison in person. I measured them from bottom of lock plate to the top of the cock at half cock without the the jaw screw, the left measured 2 3/4 inches, the right 3 1/4. Length wise the left measured 3 1/4 and the right 4 inches. Doesn’t sound like much, but looks it.
Rick, Rudyard, everyone has these locks, how big is the size difference between yours?

 

[Rudyard]

I will measure my ones most all have the two finger wings to cock them only one has a ring from memory .Ile take a pic & measure them later .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

An interesting long barreled version of the "Tromblon" blunderbuss. These almost always have flintlocks or Caucasian & Circassian miquelet locks. This one appears to be Turkish lock with a strange cock.

I have never seen a Kubur pistol with a Turkish lock, always with western flintlocks. This one's form is strange as well, however the decor all looks period and correct.

A rifle presented to Lord Nelson after the Battle of the Nile (notice the vent pick)

 

[rickystl]

Happy New Year All - I hope LOL.

Cyten: Yes. Kariophili and Rasak are likely just two different names referring to the same general gun. Some collectors have adopted the Rasak name to refer to the the guns they believe may have been made in Southern Albania versus Greece. There slight, but noticeable differences in the hardware used.
Locks: I have not yet measured the two locks I posted. But both are true shoulder gun size. With the usual extra strong mainsprings. The one you posted with the taller cock may have been made for use on a wall - type gun. The taller hammer being necessary to clear the larger wood stock. Just speculating.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

The "shoulder length" blunderbuss in the Eastern markets seem to have been far less common. There are not that many survivors today. Where the so-called "knee" pistols were everywhere. Whereas in Europe, it was exactly the opposite. The shoulder gun you posted above does indeed look Turkish/Ottoman built - with an almost Circassan looking cock. Strange.
That pistol, with it's somewhat back-saw grip also looks fully Turkish made. Nice pistol.

Based on surviving examples, it seems the Ottoman Turks preferred miquelet locks on their shoulder guns, and western flintlocks for their pistols. I've always found this curious. I think one of the reasons the traditional kubur pistols usually show up with flintlocks is that they continued in use all the way past the percussion era and into the BPC era. And ares of Europe were more than happy to export locks by the thousands for their use in building these pistols at the many gun shops throughout the Balkans.

Speaking of odd-balls: Here is a pistol in my collection. Appears to be a crude period attempt to copy an Albanian rat-tail style stock. And it's hard to believe that 99% of the silver wire inlay is still present. But it has a high quality, silver mounted Ottoman lock. Talk about a mis-mash !! LOL. The barrel is tapered round and plain. Actually, this is the first Eastern type gun I had a new liner installed in the barrel. The gun shoots good. But the grip is so narrow, you need to were one of those finger-less leather gloves to hold it steady and keep it from sliding around in your hand. LOL

Rick

 

[rickystl]

MORE PICS....

 

[Barud]

Happy new year everyone. I've got some things that I should share here, but I haven't had the time to translate or classify them yet. For now, here's something I've never seen before, an Ottoman kammerlader-style pistol, at least, so claimed by Bonhams:

 

[Rudyard]

That cocks flints would hit the top of the battery .Maybe it's a self knapper ? ! Or ordered by a pacifist ?. Or they used selected bent flints .. Odd but still pretty .Regards Rudyard

Happy new year everyone. I've got some things that I should share here, but I haven't had the time to translate or classify them yet. For now, here's something I've never seen before, an Ottoman kammerlader-style pistol, at least, so claimed by Bonhams:

Looks like a Kammer Lader to me .I'me familiar with them . You find some interesting stuff .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

I will measure my ones most all have the two finger wings to cock them only one has a ring from memory .Ile take a pic & measure them later .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

View attachment 187364
View attachment 187363

What is the story on the pistol in the top image? The stock has a superficial resemblance to the English Civil war flintlock pistols.

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

And most of those built WITHOUT the "modern tools" of today.

 

[Rudyard]

What is the story on the pistol in the top image? The stock has a superficial resemblance to the English Civil war flintlock pistols.
View attachment 187380

Dear John . Other than its general shape there isn't much of a story The lock is original Moroccan Snaphance & I put it in what I fancied might pass as a Moorish pistol just to put the lock into context , The barrel is an odd bit I had and its only ever been a theatrical prop non fire affair . The link between it & the tower pistols (Leeds RA ) is coincidence they are all 'English 'lock the Wheellock shape is just fashion carry over but it does simplifie the trigger guard & better to slip into a holster perhaps . The next story is about three bears & a nosy girl called Goldilocks . But I expect youv'e heard that one .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

View attachment 187364
View attachment 187363

Well the pics are primarily to illustrate the miguelet locks found on Ottoman / Islamic arms.Of the ones shown the three show the two finger cocking sort if the small one is off a target rifle has a ring the rifle its of has the unusual long range sight nice Damascus brl the other two detached are yet to be used measure2&1/2".3 & 1/4". & 2& 5/8 "lengths . The other pic shows a Indian matchlock & an Omani one , midst various Indian & Omani barrels . Where the rest of the pics got too No idea . but there where more .But aught to interest they who are into such arms . There was a rough sawn black two piece stock that is now an Indian M lock ' Got up' to use up some nice curly Sycamore .
Rudyard

PS the pics are in the proceeding pages scroll up

 

[rickystl]

Rudyard: That is a great collection of some very cool guns. That long range, adjustable sight on the one Ottoman gun is unusual. But does indeed look like it was made with the gun. And the position being further forward on the barrel (instead of fixed at the rear of the breech like most) shows a bit of Western flavor. Interesting.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard: That is a great collection of some very cool guns. That long range, adjustable sight on the one Ottoman gun is unusual. But does indeed look like it was made with the gun. And the position being further forward on the barrel (instead of fixed at the rear of the breech like most) shows a bit of Western flavor. Interesting.

Rick

Dear Rick Yes interesting bunch of Pics .Re the long range sight the Damascus twist is bold either side of the sight but evidently less bold around the sight & the useual rear sight is removed . the small less jar lock suggests it was originaly was used as a target rifle & possibly the long range sight was added some years later ? I have shot it and found it shot very well despite a hellatious big vent .One curious feature is a rude steel but plate that has a square hole as if perhaps some sort on jig or cramp to test it from an immoveable rest its certainly had a long use . The barrels are Indian Or Omani part of the ones hauled to UK by the redoubtable Major Noel Corry there where thousands . few pounds apiece in the early 70s .One shewn on two parts of wood are now together well advanced .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Though extremely rare, the Ottomans did have a few wheellocks made in the 17th century. This example has a 36¾ inch, 75 caliber barrel and is marked by Kilian Zelner of Vienna/Salzburg.
View attachment 181397

Also of note, on early examples, it is not uncommon to find a vent pick compartment on the stock. Having the pick still attached is another story! This example is dated from 1690.
View attachment 181542

While looking for something else, I came across another example:
Wheellock musket By Rajab - Royal Armouries collections

The stock shape looks more European, but it has an Eastern style barrel.

 

[rickystl]

Another Turkish/Ottoman lock from my collection. This one rifle/pistol size. Note the similarities of construction with all the others posted in this Thread. This one is a bit worn, but still functions well.

Rick

 

[cyten]

With the usual extra strong mainsprings. The one you posted with the taller cock may have been made for use on a wall - type gun. The taller hammer being necessary to clear the larger wood stock. Just speculating.

Rick

The mainspring on this "new" lock is so much heavier than my other one, to the point it cannot be done without camping it down prior. I will have to go through my hard drive to see some photos of ottoman wall guns to try to compare the size of the locks.

Speaking of odd-balls: Here is a pistol in my collection. Appears to be a crude period attempt to copy an Albanian rat-tail style stock. And it's hard to believe that 99% of the silver wire inlay is still present. But it has a high quality, silver mounted Ottoman lock. Talk about a mis-mash !! LOL. The barrel is tapered round and plain. Actually, this is the first Eastern type gun I had a new liner installed in the barrel. The gun shoots good. But the grip is so narrow, you need to were one of those finger-less leather gloves to hold it steady and keep it from sliding around in your hand. LOL

Rick

That is an odd duck for sure, Turkish lock, Albanian form. Though it seems you can never be surprised by the combination of features from the empire! Very cool!

Well the pics are primarily to illustrate the miguelet locks found on Ottoman / Islamic arms.Of the ones shown the three show the two finger cocking sort if the small one is off a target rifle has a ring the rifle its of has the unusual long range sight nice Damascus brl the other two detached are yet to be used measure2&1/2".3 & 1/4". & 2& 5/8 "lengths . The other pic shows a Indian matchlock & an Omani one , midst various Indian & Omani barrels . Where the rest of the pics got too No idea . but there where more .But aught to interest they who are into such arms . There was a rough sawn black two piece stock that is now an Indian M lock ' Got up' to use up some nice curly Sycamore .
Rudyard

PS the pics are in the proceeding pages scroll up

Great photos, Rudyard! Thank you for the measurements as well.

While looking for something else, I came across another example:
Wheellock musket By Rajab - Royal Armouries collections
View attachment 187986
The stock shape looks more European, but it has an Eastern style barrel.

Yes this is very reminiscent of the early Italian guns the Ottomans adopted, but with Ottoman decoration on the stock.

Very cool, thanks for posting it!

Happy new year everyone. I've got some things that I should share here, but I haven't had the time to translate or classify them yet. For now, here's something I've never seen before, an Ottoman kammerlader-style pistol, at least, so claimed by Bonhams:

Wow that is not something I'd heard of before outside of Scandanavia!

Another Turkish/Ottoman lock from my collection. This one rifle/pistol size. Note the similarities of construction with all the others posted in this Thread. This one is a bit worn, but still functions well.

Rick

Between you and Rudyard, I can see why it's so hard to find any nice examples left in Turkey!

 

[cyten]

I wanted to show some of the work of Bulgarian craftsmen and enthusiasts.

Here is a Boyliya that was restored, having to make 645 rozetki and a ton of mother of pearl.

Boyliya lock with a newly fabricated cock

Kariophili restored from just a rear part of the stock