Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

MORE PICS....

 

[rickystl]

STILL MORE PICS....

 

[rickystl]

AND YET MORE...

 

[rickystl]

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO END LOL....

 

[hectorintca]

Love those barrel bands.

 

[VicN]

Wow, some amazing beauties posted in this section, I'm hoping it's o.k to add my rather plain presumed Ottoman gun here, it's 42" long, and the barrel is rifled with 6 grooves and appears to be a simple form of Damascus steel.

The stock is said to be Tiger wood, and the Miquelet lock has a signature in a circle, inlay is green stained bone with brass nails etc. The stock has brass castings nailed on red velvet type material,

 

[bballingr]

I've never seen a picture illustrating the proper shooting stance with an Ottoman rifle. Could someone please post a picture ?

 

[rickystl]

Hi VicN. And welcome to the Forum.

NOT plain at all. LOL That is a very nice Ottoman/Turkish shesane rifle. It is very well decorated, including a substantial use of the Green dye (a Muslim religious color). You do see this green dye added to various Eastern guns. But your gun has more of it than any other I've seen.
Also interesting on your gun is the lock. Instead of the traditional style of Turkish locks which usually show up on these guns, it uses the Balkan style lock, which is one of the two most encountered with guns. Like the Turkish lock, it was considered strong and reliable.
The barrel is likely Turkish Damascus. What's interesting is the 6-groove rifling. Other shesane rifles I've encountered usually have 7 or 8 groove rifling. The wood stock looks like it could be Circassian walnut. Would not be a surprise.

It's a very nice and interesting example. Thanks for posting. I'm sure other comments will come.

Rick

 

[VicN]

Hello Rick,

thanks for your reply , the green dye is interesting and I presume it's stained on bone?, I just took a shot of the muzzle to show the rifling, it's very corroded down there as you can see, I have a cleaning rod up in the loft so will give it a clean. There is a small signature stamp on the barrel, see photo, as well as on the front of the lock.
I'll have a try at getting a close up of the lock signature but need daylight, I think the top part of the word is Adil which means justice but it could also be part of the makers name

 

[cyten]

Hi Cyten

Some more good points. All we can do is speculate. But I guess that's part of the fun. We'll likely never know for sure.

DARN. That is a really nice looking Tanchica. (I'll use your spelling LOL). Wonder what happened to the seller ? Occasionally, something strange will happen at an auction. Maybe at the end of the auction for this gun, but before the end of the entire auction, the seller decided he could get more money than the hammer price, and simply took his gun and disappeared ? Maybe to rendezvous with a sneaky buyer later ? Sorry to hear this. Usually, the seller signs an agreement with the auction house. They will notice him if he ever tries to return and sell something else.

Rick

The auction had no reserve and it went for very cheap, I'm guessing he had been offered a higher amount before and thought it would kill at auction but was proven wrong. Bummer for me.

Another wonderful piece from your collection, Rick! You said you haven't seen any markings besides the Albanian eagle? I wonder if you pulled the barrel if there are any marks on the underside? I spent a good amount of time in Albania before covid, considered buying a beach house there (back when a 3 bed 2 bath 10 min walk from the water ran 20,000€) I never saw any Tanchica but have been lusting after one since I fell in love with the country... anyway! What caliber is it and have you shot it or considered?

Here are some period photos:

Photo taken in Feb 1862 in Durres (central coast) during the young King Edward VII's grand tour.

From 1865 in Shkoder (Catholic minority North)

Colorized photo

Franz Nopsca von Felső-Szilvás (Hungarian adventurer) in 1913

Shala (Northern tribe) man taken by Pietro Marubi (famous photographer of the time and region) in 1900

One of the interesting things about the Ottoman guns is that they were used so far into the age of photography that it is possible to see them in actual usage when so many parts of the world had moved onto breechloaders.

 

[cyten]

Wow, some amazing beauties posted in this section, I'm hoping it's o.k to add my rather plain presumed Ottoman gun here, it's 42" long, and the barrel is rifled with 6 grooves and appears to be a simple form of Damascus steel.

The stock is said to be Tiger wood, and the Miquelet lock has a signature in a circle, inlay is green stained bone with brass nails etc. The stock has brass castings nailed on red velvet type material

Welcome VicN! It is more than ok and especially welcome to post! I wouldn't call that plain by any means! That is a wonderful Shishane! As has been mentioned by Rick, green is a religious color in Islam and the the crescent + star is a relgious symbol as well, both can be seen on your rifle. I agree with Rick in that the wood looks to be Circassian walnut, but I'm not sure I'd classify that lock as a Balkan lock, looks to me to be typical Turkish, especially the hammer. It does have that long extension where there was some precious stone or something mimicking one pierced on it. The arabic inscription in the lock is a makers mark, it would be interesting to see. It is also only the second Shishane I have seen with velvet/cloth buttstock covering. This is usually something only seen on Bulgarian Boyliya, @bobi13 explained to me it was made by the wife of the owner so he could feel/remember her whenever he shot (or something along those lines) But yours has interesting pieces sewn into it, please post more photos!

I've never seen a picture illustrating the proper shooting stance with an Ottoman rifle. Could someone please post a picture ?

If you go back through this thread, there are some photos of Bulgarian reenactors firing them. Page 3 has some I believe. HERE HERE & HERE are some videos as well

 

[Rudyard]

This thread gets better & better if one curious thing is all such barrels I've come by had 6 grouves least I cant recall any other & most I had very open muzzles by intention and open up at the breach as if by design & not wear , Some might be wear but they seem quite intentional which argues against our notions of rifling as the ball must be very loose on starting & be loose on seating mayhap the powder was more volumeous or wadding used atop the powder .. We know they wearnt dummies so it presumably was by design . I have only one Turkish target rifle with a perfect bore and has a rear sight good for what Ide estimate some very long range ' Picket' bullet . Ile have to check but I don't recall it haveing either end particularly open .Just looked up my records of its shooting a slight muzzle relief noted but it shot very well considering very poor vent that threw out much gas , since amended but not shot. I do note it being 'a prickly' gun with the bands ect & brass decore catching . The lock being very small so less jar much as European target rifles adopted . and the whole rear sight dovetailed in is very uncommon but suggests use much later that might be thought normal . This observed the turn of century pics of these Balkan worthies still considering the ungainly long guns as normal threws the idea of how late was my rifles use .. All very interesting stuff choose what . Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

This thread gets better & better if one curious thing is all such barrels I've come by had 6 grouves least I cant recall any other & most I had very open muzzles by intention and open up at the breach as if by design & not wear some might be wear but they seem quite intentional which argues againd our notions of rifleing as the ball must be vey loose on starting & be loose on seating mayhap the powder was more volumeous or wadding used atop the powder .. We know they wearnt dummies so it presumably was by design . I have only one Turkish target rifle with a perfect bore and has a rear sight good for what Ide estimate some very long range Picket bullet . Ile have to check but I dont recal it haveing either end particularly open .Just looked up

 

[bballingr]

Where & how do you shoulder an Ottoman muzzleloader for use ? Some of these rifles have very unusual stocks & I've been told that the shoulder stock design aids in use riding horses or camels. I've seen posed pictures of Ottoman ML rifles (very cool), but I'm having a difficult time imagining how the under slung stock design is implemented - a picture would help a great deal.

 

[cyten]

Where & how do you shoulder an Ottoman muzzleloader for use ? Some of these rifles have very unusual stocks & I've been told that the shoulder stock design aids in use riding horses or camels. I've seen posed pictures of Ottoman ML rifles (very cool), but I'm having a difficult time imagining how the under slung stock design is implemented - a picture would help a great deal.

I posted three videos in my last reply "HERE HERE & HERE"

 

[VicN]

Here is the signature on front of the lock of my Shishane, it's very weakly struck so I have tried to enhance it, can anyone recognise it as a known maker? The velvet stock has brass castings as shown in the photo, when I bought the gun in the 1960's it had the rotted remains of a tassel hanging off but it fell to pieces

 

[toot]

why do all of the men in the pictures carry so many pistols in there waist bands? one isn't enough. 6 pistols add up to six shots? just curious? you would think that with all of the weight of them, that they would slide out of it.

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

No 6 shooters yet AND no semi auto swords or knives either.

 

[bballingr]

Thanks for posting pictures re; shouldering & shooting Ottoman muzzleloading rifles. In doing my own research, my confusion is with "S Stocks" and or Jezail rifle stocks. Please pardon my incorrect definition earlier. It doesn't appear that these rifles get shouldered, or do they ? Can anyone post a picture of someone shooting a S Stock or Jezail muzzleloading rifle ?

 

[rickystl]

Post #470:

Cyten: Thanks again for the great photos. Great additions to my library.

I don't know what I was thinking when I first looked at the lock on VicN's gun. It is indeed an Ottoman/Turkish miquelet style lock. And the most common encountered on these shoulder guns. I stand corrected. Thanks. Getting old I guess.

Also, much agree with your comments on the velvet wrist covering. I've only seen 1 or 2 shesane myself with that feature. Appears to be mostly a Bulgarian custom.

Rick