Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

RE: Posts # 469, 472, and 473.

VicN: Thanks for posting a pic of the muzzle. And some interesting comments from Rudyard.

Looking at the muzzle of the barrel. Hmmmm. It could be what first appears to be 6-groove rifling, is actually just muzzle decoration. Not uncommon. Will require some judicious bore cleaning (at least at the muzzle end) to be sure. It could also turn out to be straight groove rifling, which would be rare for a Turkish barrel, but not unheard of. At the moment, my guess is due to the shape of the cuts, the bore turns out to be a smooth bore versus rifled. The cuts used maybe as some sort of assist in loading (?) But again, some cleaning will reveal which. If the barrel turns out to be a smooth bore, many collectors refer to the gun as a Tufuk versus a Shesane. But the two terms are often used interchangeably.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Post #476:

Hi VicN

Unfortunately, even with a translation, it is usually impossible to trace the makers marks/stamps back to any particular gun shop from the period. It seems these many, smaller shops never kept any written records aligning the maker's mark - with the builder - with a specific shop where the gun was finally assembled. Unless this information is still hidden somewhere within the Turkish borders. LOL Gun making during the period was generally accomplished through three trades: Lock building, barrel making, and stock making (and final assembly). Instead of the large, dominate arms manufacturers as in Europe, the Ottomans seemed to have secured a vast amount of smaller shops throughout the Balkans and other areas under Ottoman control into arms making. Even entire towns/villages were dedicated to making arms, often under contract to the Ottoman Empire. But again, I've never seen any written documentation to this effect.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Thanks for posting pictures re; shouldering & shooting Ottoman muzzleloading rifles. In doing my own research, my confusion is with "S Stocks" and or Jezail rifle stocks. Please pardon my incorrect definition earlier. It doesn't appear that these rifles get shouldered, or do they ? Can anyone post a picture of someone shooting a S Stock or Jezail muzzleloading rifle ?

I believe you are referring to the Jezail shoulder guns prominent in Afghanistan. When you first fire a Jazail - even from a bench - it is an odd feeling. But after about 4-5 shots, it becomes comfortable. The butt cap sits on the shoulder as with any other shoulder gun. But the right hand (assuming right-handed here) grips the wrist area of the stock in a somewhat pistol grip form. It seems the right hand absorbs more of the recoil than the shoulder when firing. It's strange at first, but you get use to it rather quickly.
After years of studying this, I'm convinced that the curve of the stock had nothing to do with shooting the gun. While every Jazail I've seen had some arrangement for a shoulder sling, I believe the stock curve was utilized to carry the (usually muzzle heavy) gun under the arm pit when the user wanted the gun in a "ready" position while climbing up and down the continuous mountain ranges. If you position the curve under your arm pit and your hand at the rear of the forearm, it is quite comfortably to carry in this manner. Try it sometime if you get the chance and you will see what I mean. By the way, the Jazails were made in both rifled and smooth bore variations depending on the owner's preference.
Here is a pic of my Jazail shooter that now sports a .54 caliber rifled barrel liner from Bobby Hoyt.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

why do all of the men in the pictures carry so many pistols in there waist bands? one isn't enough. 6 pistols add up to six shots? just curious? you would think that with all of the weight of them, that they would slide out of it.

Hi Toot

It seems these belts were designed to carry at least 2 pistols, a sword, and a knife. Or some variation. Cyten has posted photos/films of today's reenactors in Bulgaria using these same belts. They seemed to be in common use throughout much of the Ottoman Empire.
With all the photos and drawings showing the pistols carried in pairs, it makes me think there were more pistols made as pairs than we see today. The separation being from time, lost, or even today residing with different collectors, but not knowing each other. LOL

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi VicN

Unfortunately, even with a translation, it is usually impossible to trace the makers marks/stamps back to any particular gun shop from the period. It seems these many, smaller shops never kept any written records aligning the maker's mark - with the builder - with a specific shop where the gun was finally assembled. Unless this information is still hidden somewhere within the Turkish borders. LOL Gun making during the period was generally accomplished through three trades: Lock building, barrel making, and stock making (and final assembly). Instead of the large, dominate arms manufacturers as in Europe, the Ottomans seemed to have secured a vast amount of smaller shops throughout the Balkans and other areas under Ottoman control into arms making. Even entire towns/villages were dedicated to making arms, often under contract to the Ottoman Empire. But again, I've never seen any written documentation to this effect.

Rick

i actually have a book on ottoman arms production. Once my cold medicine and coffee start working, I will see if I can find something concrete.

 

[TobJohn]

Post #476:

Hi VicN

Unfortunately, even with a translation, it is usually impossible to trace the makers marks/stamps back to any particular gun shop from the period. It seems these many, smaller shops never kept any written records aligning the maker's mark - with the builder - with a specific shop where the gun was finally assembled. Unless this information is still hidden somewhere within the Turkish borders. LOL Gun making during the period was generally accomplished through three trades: Lock building, barrel making, and stock making (and final assembly). Instead of the large, dominate arms manufacturers as in Europe, the Ottomans seemed to have secured a vast amount of smaller shops throughout the Balkans and other areas under Ottoman control into arms making. Even entire towns/villages were dedicated to making arms, often under contract to the Ottoman Empire. But again, I've never seen any written documentation to this effect.

Rick

I looked through the book (Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire), but unfortunately the arms production part is mostly about cannons. It does mention that there was a state arsenal making muskets in Istanbul, but by the 17th century, private arms makers were of superior quality. Cannons were cast in state owned foundries in provincial capitals and sometimes near the mining centers. The book mentions that in most parts of Ottoman arms manufacturing for the military (particularly the component parts of gunpowder), there was very limited free enterprise and the state directly dictated manufacture or delegated it to an aristocrat.

 

[Rudyard]

why do all of the men in the pictures carry so many pistols in there waist bands? one isn't enough. 6 pistols add up to six shots? just curious? you would think that with all of the weight of them, that they would slide out of it.

They seem to have a sort of girdle of holsters so they don't fall out .The, Metal fatigue, doesn't seem to be a factor . Certainly doesn't seem to worry the present day re enactors . Good on them they certainly got style . Regards Rudyard

 

[VicN]

RE: Posts # 469, 472, and 473.

VicN: Thanks for posting a pic of the muzzle. And some interesting comments from Rudyard.

Looking at the muzzle of the barrel. Hmmmm. It could be what first appears to be 6-groove rifling, is actually just muzzle decoration. Not uncommon. Will require some judicious bore cleaning (at least at the muzzle end) to be sure. It could also turn out to be straight groove rifling, which would be rare for a Turkish barrel, but not unheard of. At the moment, my guess is due to the shape of the cuts, the bore turns out to be a smooth bore versus rifled. The cuts used maybe as some sort of assist in loading (?) But again, some cleaning will reveal which. If the barrel turns out to be a smooth bore, many collectors refer to the gun as a Tufuk versus a Shesane. But the two terms are often used interchangeably.

Rick

Hello Rick,

not much luck cleaning the bore as my cleaning rod is too thick to go down the barrel!,
I did get to force it's wire brush down 2" though, I'm reasonably sure it has grooves all the way down, I have a cheap Ebay endoscope and looking 1/3 way down you can see traces of the grooves which are heavily contaminated with corrosion and fouling. I can't get it right to the bottom as the brightness switch stops it going further. Whether the grooves are straight or have a twist I can't say
I'm sure I once had a wire brush on a flexible shaft but can't find it right now but will have another look.

 

[toot]

Hi Toot

It seems these belts were designed to carry at least 2 pistols, a sword, and a knife. Or some variation. Cyten has posted photos/films of today's reenactors in Bulgaria using these same belts. They seemed to be in common use throughout much of the Ottoman Empire.
With all the photos and drawings showing the pistols carried in pairs, it makes me think there were more pistols made as pairs than we see today. The separation being from time, lost, or even today residing with different collectors, but not knowing each other. LOL

Rick

thank you so much for the great explanation on the question that I asked. is there a site that I can go to to see one of them? also where can I go to see the Bulgarian reenactors video. toot.

 

[toot]

They seem to have a sort of girdle of holsters so they don't fall out .The, Metal fatigue, doesn't seem to be a factor . Certainly doesn't seem to worry the present day re enactors . Good on them they certainly got style . Regards Rudyard

thank you for the reply to my question. that tells me a lot . also can you guide me to videos of Bulgarian reenactors videos'? toot.

 

[cyten]

thank you for the reply to my question. that tells me a lot . also can you guide me to videos of Bulgarian reenactors videos'? toot.

the videos are HERE HERE & HERE

The Silahlik/Bensilah is basically a belt with several layers or flaps of leather or in some cases fabric. There are some craftsmen in Bulgaria & Greece still making them in various levels of quality. HERE is a video of the Bulgarian warrior getting outfitted, at time mark 3:13 he starts to put on the Silahlik

 

[rickystl]

Hello Rick,

not much luck cleaning the bore as my cleaning rod is too thick to go down the barrel!,
I did get to force it's wire brush down 2" though, I'm reasonably sure it has grooves all the way down, I have a cheap Ebay endoscope and looking 1/3 way down you can see traces of the grooves which are heavily contaminated with corrosion and fouling. I can't get it right to the bottom as the brightness switch stops it going further. Whether the grooves are straight or have a twist I can't say
I'm sure I once had a wire brush on a flexible shaft but can't find it right now but will have another look.
View attachment 240075

Thanks Vic. Yes, sometimes the corrosion can be so far advanced the rifling grooves seem to disappear. But your early investigation seems like the barrel was rifled in some form. Thanks for posting. Let us know if you find further evidence. And thanks for posting.

Rick

 

[VicN]

Thanks Vic. Yes, sometimes the corrosion can be so far advanced the rifling grooves seem to disappear. But your early investigation seems like the barrel was rifled in some form. Thanks for posting. Let us know if you find further evidence. And thanks for posting.

Rick

Here is a close up of the bore using an old camera instead of a phone, you can clearly see a groove going down the barrel

 

[cyten]

Here is a close up of the bore using an old camera instead of a phone, you can clearly see a groove going down the barrel

Yes it is clearly rifled, nice clean up. Have you measured what the caliber is?

 

[VicN]

Yes it is clearly rifled, nice clean up. Have you measured what the caliber is?

It's 22mm

 

[toot]

the videos are HERE HERE & HERE

The Silahlik/Bensilah is basically a belt with several layers or flaps of leather or in some cases fabric. There are some craftsmen in Bulgaria & Greece still making them in various levels of quality. HERE is a video of the Bulgarian warrior getting outfitted, at time mark 3:13 he starts to put on the Silahlik

View attachment 240096View attachment 240097View attachment 240098
View attachment 240099View attachment 240100

I can't thank you enough for the sites that you posted. I can't get enough of the culture. the videos are so great more than words describing them. again thank you., I have saved them in my favorites.

 

[rickystl]

I can't thank you enough for the sites that you posted. I can't get enough of the culture. the videos are so great more than words describing them. again thank you., I have saved them in my favorites.

YES!! Thanks again Cyten for re-posting those great Bulgarian reenactors videos. And, thanks for posting the different variety of waist belts that were so commonly used.
At first glance, one would think that all those weapons centered in a single belt pouch would be heavy and cumbersome in carry. But anyone who has handled their pistols, swords, daggers, etc. will verify their weapons were not heavy. A fully loaded belt might weigh less than 15-lbs. (7kg).

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Vic: Thanks for the additional photo. Solid evidence of 6-groove rifling. Can you tell if the rifling is a slow twist or straight groove ? 22mm is a large caliber !!

Rick

 

[VicN]

Vic: Thanks for the additional photo. Solid evidence of 6-groove rifling. Can you tell if the rifling is a slow twist or straight groove ? 22mm is a large caliber !!

Rick

Jeez, I made a stupid mistake there using an old scratched transparent ruler on my desk, when you said it's large I re-measured and it's actually 12mm! so only 10mm out!! I can't see far enough down the barrel and the endoscope camera won't go right down so no idea about the rifling,

 

[rickystl]

Jeez, I made a stupid mistake there using an old scratched transparent ruler on my desk, when you said it's large I re-measured and it's actually 12mm! so only 10mm out!! I can't see far enough down the barrel and the endoscope camera won't go right down so no idea about the rifling,

OK. 12mm. That's about .47 caliber on this side of the Pond. Pretty common. Let us know if you even find out if the rifling is straight or twist. All the Turkish barrels I've seen are 7 or 8 groove, twist rifling. Doesn't mean a 6-groove twist didn't exist. This is just the first I've seen.
Some time around the 2nd Quarter of the 1800's there was some experimentation with straight groove rifling. (maybe earlier ?) I think it was also somewhat in vogue with sporting gun makers in England. But it never really caught on. And I believe those barrels were 6-groove or less. My memory is not good on this.

Rick