Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten. Again, just wonderful photos. Thanks.

We do know the miquelet lock was widely accepted by the Ottomans almost immediately after it's introduction. The way the Ottoman matchlocks were designed, it would make it easy to convert them to miquelet. With no wood having been removed from the side panel on the stock of the matchlock, and the mainspring of the miquelet being on the outside of the lock plate (less wood removal required), this would be a relatively easy task. That may also account as to why there are so few Ottoman Shishanes and Tufuks remaining today in original matchlock configuration.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

REF: Post #677, 7th Photo down.

The warrior in the center holding/examining his Tanchica. Notice attached to his shooting pouch a long length of leather which I believe is a bullet/ball bag. I've often wondered why the long length between the accessories pouch and the bullet bag ? But I've seen this often on original leather belts/accessory pouches.
Here is an original flask with two ball bags I have. While I believe this one is Algerian, it's the same idea with the long length of leather strap making quite a distance from the flask. Always thought this was strange - but only from a Western point of view.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Wooops. Forgot the photo.....

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Wooops. Forgot the photo.....

Rick
View attachment 327676

Well if you are mounted, be it horse or camel the ball bags wouldn't be so unhandy and keep the powder flask from flying about Ive seen Tuaregs with Swords in Mali don't Recall them having guns But I saw Snaphance Kabyles in Bedouin homes a day north of Adra Algeria
but that was 1965 what they have now No idea , Ah that said I have witnessed the charging riders firing off long muskets for a greeting for Hassan the second Boy king of Morocco down in Agadir once ..That might be the thinking & I believe they still do that ceremonial stuff with new guns While the Women do that' LO Lu OO ' Noise.


I was tempted to recite the "Oh Take me East of Suez where best is like the worst. Were here aint no' Ten commandments 'and a man can raise thirst " from Kiplings ' Road to Mandalay ' But totally wrong area So I wont recite it ! . ( Get a grip on your self Rudyard !)
Regards Rudyard anyway

 

[EGEBOZK]

Hello everyone, I was gifted this pistol sometime ago but never really found out any information on it except for that it is probably an Ottoman pistol made in the 19th century but I am not really sure as I am new in this field. I would be glad if someone can give me more information on it. Also although I would never sell it since it was gifted to me I am curious about the value of such pistols.

(I saw some pictures from the Istanbul Military Museum,which I frequently visit, posted on this thread; If anyone is interested I can share some pictures from the armory in the museum.)

 

[Rudyard]

Hello everyone, I was gifted this pistol sometime ago but never really found out any information on it except for that it is probably an Ottoman pistol made in the 19th century but I am not really sure as I am new in this field. I would be glad if someone can give me more information on it. Also although I would never sell it since it was gifted to me I am curious about the value of such pistols.

(I saw some pictures from the Istanbul Military Museum,which I frequently visit, posted on this thread; If anyone is interested I can share some pictures from the armory in the museum.)

Well it looks right enough appears to' have some age' The lock is not quite what youde expect that might be later work..but certainly has the look of an Ottoman pistol There are a fair few on this Forum very interested in Ottoman arms look under "Pre flintlock" Your English is excellent . I was in Turky 1966 but all I can recall is Teshicush i dirum (Thankyou ?) & Birak ( Flag ?) Not very usefull ! .We do have forum members very familiar with Ottoman arms Some live in Turkey, look up ' Ottoman Arms ' The first post is pieces I made from old parts . Welcome from N Z You will fit right in on this forum. Oh re value ? not sure but others will know
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Hi EGEBOZK. You probably by now saw my response in the Handgun section on the Forum.

Rick

 

[EGEBOZK]

Hello everyone, I was gifted this pistol sometime ago but never really found out any information on it except for that it is probably an Ottoman pistol made in the 19th century but I am not really sure as I am new in this field. I would be glad if someone can give me more information on it. Also although I would never sell it since it was gifted to me I am curious about the value of such pistols.

(I saw some pictures from the Istanbul Military Museum,which I frequently visit, posted on this thread; If anyone is interested I can share some pictures from the armory in the museum.)

Thank you everyone for your answers. Although it isn’t as old as I thought it was it is still a nice decorative piece and it’s the thought that counts since it was a gift.

 

[Barud]

Warms my heart and soothes my curiosity to see this thread ongoing with new data flowing in as always.

And as for these "Metris" or "Trench" guns, from what I have seen, they are basically what we know as wall guns. I managed to find an old photo from my visit to the Vienna Arsenal in 2010. A very odd Metris rifle, whose form I haven't seen anywhere else in any museums with Turkish weapons. This was captured at the Siege of Vienna in 1683.
View attachment 327329

A couple of possibilities come to mind regarding this specific example - it could have been simply captured from the Spanish or the Italians (or some other miquelet-wielding foe), and rebarreled (if it has been rebarreled, that is) given the shape of the lockplate and the stock. There's a similar example in the Military Museum, captured from the Italians, which has an early looking flintlock on it. Or perhaps it was built for the Adriatic as I recall seeing some earlier Balkan miquelets who were closer to Italian firearms in shape and decoration. Last possibility that comes to mind was this being built in an Occidentalist manner. I recall seeing at one Ottoman matchlock, in the Dresden Museum I think (its photo was in this very thread, iirc), which was built to look like a Western musket. Perhaps there was such a trend in the 17th century. I'm more partial to the first and second possibilities, though.

 

[Rudyard]

Warms my heart and soothes my curiosity to see this thread ongoing with new data flowing in as always.



A couple of possibilities come to mind regarding this specific example - it could have been simply captured from the Spanish or the Italians (or some other miquelet-wielding foe), and rebarreled (if it has been rebarreled, that is) given the shape of the lockplate and the stock. There's a similar example in the Military Museum, captured from the Italians, which has an early looking flintlock on it. Or perhaps it was built for the Adriatic as I recall seeing some earlier Balkan miquelets who were closer to Italian firearms in shape and decoration. Last possibility that comes to mind was this being built in an Occidentalist manner. I recall seeing at one Ottoman matchlock, in the Dresden Museum I think (its photo was in this very thread, iirc), which was built to look like a Western musket. Perhaps there was such a trend in the 17th century. I'm more partial to the first and second possibilities, though.

Pleased to be able to warm your heart ,We might as a group be a bit "Left field" but Ime happy to be so & in such learned company
Regards to us all Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Pleased to be able to warm your heart ,We might as a group be a bit "Left field" but Ime happy to be so & in such learned company
Regards to us all Rudyard

Dido and I’m glad @Barud is still contributing. It’s always great to have interested parties from the part of the world of the subject matter!

 

[rickystl]

Dido and I’m glad @Barud is still contributing. It’s always great to have interested parties from the part of the world of the subject matter!

YES !!! Much agree.

 

[cyten]

Had a brief visit to Brescia, Italy and saw that they had some Algerian style Agujenta locks on display. I hadn’t considered these were made in Italy for their market.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Thanks again for the two lock photos. WOW !! That's a new revelation to me also. I would have never guessed the Italians would have made copies of these big Algerian style locks for their market. News to me. On the other hand, the Italians exported so much of everything to the Eastern markets in general. But I can visualize these locks being made, as per above, exported, and then later decorated by the Algerian locals. As was done with so many other locks and barrels. Thanks again for these photos.
Today, you will find many of these Algerian locks with maker's marks and/or dates. Usually on the bottom of the mainspring area. Now this makes me wonder if the maker is a local Algerian lock maker, or just a local stamp on an Italian made lock ? LOL Would not be the first time this was done on Eastern gun locks and barrels. LOL
It's believed that these big Algerian locks originated from the earliest Spanish variations. I also believe this. So, theoretically, if you find one of these locks un-dated, it could have been made anywhere from 1650-1850.
Notice the lock in the first photo has what is often called a water-proof pan. A typically 1800's addition. On the second photo, you will notice a dog-style, external safety catch. Notice the catch also has a spring which forces the catch backwards when pulling the hammer back to cock position, instead of relying on gravity only.
Amazing how long this style of lock remained in use with the Algerian locals. Probably the reason so many of these locks are still available today.
Again, thanks Cyten for these photos.

Rick

 

[cyten]

I’ve been in Bulgaria for nearly a week and have made an acquaintance who does traditional leather work for the reenactors here. Here are some Silahlik (weapons belt) and Kuburluk (pistol holsters)

A traditional bandolier

And another gun restorer also makes Suma (pistol ramrods) or as they call them in Bulgarian “Harbiye” aged and new

Here is a Boyliya he restored

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Looking at those photos of the leather work just breaks my heart. Had I known these craftsmen existed 5-10 years ago during my working years, it would have saved me a lot of searching. LOL Beautiful, traditional work.
Even suma pistol loading rods still being made. WOW !!
What a great restoration on that Boylyia. Looks like it's begging to be shot. LOL

Thanks again for the super photos.

Rick

 

[Barud]

And another gun restorer also makes Suma (pistol ramrods) or as they call them in Bulgarian “Harbiye” aged and new

I must say I'm quite envious of your travels. Thanks for the photos as always. One thing that I am curious about though, could the word that you mentioned be "harbi" instead of "harbiye" (harbi meaning ramrod in Turkish)?

 

[ArtyGunner]

Mine

 

[Rudyard]

Mine

Dear Arty Gunner. Nice Moroccan snaphance looks hardly used they don't survive that well usually barely holding together oft as not . I think its the ever regular fine blown sand get every where oil only gives it a soft landing . Only one I saw in a home was wrapped round the lock with rags to keep the sand out . I worked for Canfor up at Nimpkish lake as camp carpenter made a long rifle in the workshop at nights & during a too hot' wobble 'I walked down the Tesitika river with it made a rude raft & paddled up to Beaver Cove to save battleling all the coastal salal.
I know the Homathka Butte & Night Inlet s walked down both from Tatla Lake & Klina Klini . muzzle loaders but not flint . 70s Not hunting just for the pot best gun was my old ex flint double 16 bore ball in the left & shot in the right . My father was 4th RHA gunner incidentally & ive fired a number of ML cannons over the years mostly an old 9 pounder Gunnade belongs to Nelson town .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

I must say I'm quite envious of your travels. Thanks for the photos as always. One thing that I am curious about though, could the word that you mentioned be "harbi" instead of "harbiye" (harbi meaning ramrod in Turkish)?

Hey it’s only a few hours from Istanbul to Plovdiv by train or bus! I’ve seen it written as both Харбия (harbiye) & Харбии (harbi) here. Since I don’t speak Bulgarian, it could be that harbiye is plural and harbi is singular. There are many borrowed Turkish words here.

Mine

Wow that’s a very nice condition Moukhala! How long is the barrel and what caliber?

Rudyard, your stories and experience are priceless as usual