Out of retirement help

[Montanafreak]

I am pulling my Investarms 50 Hawken ML out of retirement due to Montana having a season now. I am familiar with ML as i use to hunt back home in Michigan a lot but I used my Black Diamond for the last 10 years i did it.
My question is, what's the best powder to use, how many grains? I checked the barrel with a camera (I always was very thorough cleaning it) and all seems well. I will be using .45cal sabot rounds. I will be using MUSKET Caps as the ignition source. My mind tells me i ran 90-100gr of Pyrodex but after 20 years i better check with the group experts. Thank you in advance for the assistance.

 

[deermanok]

In my own 50 caliber rifle, I use Old Ensyford 3f. I do have Swiss 3f but I like to use that in my pistols.
I'm more of a patched round ball guy myself.
Those plastic things are not what I would use.
A good all lead conical bullet like a TC maxi hunter is probably the better option.

 

[William O.]

The best powder to use is 3f traditional black powder. Then you won't have to use a musket cap to ignite the powder charge. Get a stainless steel nipple like the Spitfire or the bronze Treso nipple, #11 cap.
Start with 50 grains of 3f; I like Goex. Put your target at 40-50 yards so you can easily see it. Start with a 50 caliber round ball and a pillow ticking patch. Sometimes it's called mattress ticking but make sure it is 100% cotton. You must lube the patch with something but don't soak it to the point of it dripping. Something as simple as olive oil will do. Cut the patch at the muzzle. Begin shooting three shots aiming at the same spot on the target. Do NOT adjust your sights or change anything at this point, you are just finding what powder charge your rifle "likes". I suggest you take a notebook or just a piece of paper to write down your results, including temperature, humidity, wind, etc. Anyway, take three shots, then increase your powder charge by 5 grains and repeat. At some point your groups should tighten up, then get bigger. Reduce by 5 grains and you've found the most accurate charge for your rifle. Only then should you adjust your sights or change any other variable. I suggest that you swab the bore between shots or every third shot using a cotton flannel patch that is barely dampened with rubbing alcohol. Less is more and swabbing is just down and up, then discard the patch. You can find both types of material at the local fabric store and sometimes Wallyworld.

The depth of rifling will affect the ability to stabilize a lead conical as much as the rate of twist so you may not get decent accuracy from your rifle using one. As to what is acceptable for your needs and the conditions where you hunt I cannot say. In my experience the addition of a lubed fiber was always increased accuracy with any conical I tried. However, a .50 PRB is a proven game getter if you put it in the vital zone.

So, free advice is just that; free What works in one rifle may not work in exactly the same caliber and model. Ultimately, it's up to you to do the work but I find that to be half the fun! Your mileage may vary. Good luck regardless.

 

[Montanafreak]

The best powder to use is 3f traditional black powder. Then you won't have to use a musket cap to ignite the powder charge. Get a stainless steel nipple like the Spitfire or the bronze Treso nipple, #11 cap.
Start with 50 grains of 3f; I like Goex. Put your target at 40-50 yards so you can easily see it. Start with a 50 caliber round ball and a pillow ticking patch. Sometimes it's called mattress ticking but make sure it is 100% cotton. You must lube the patch with something but don't soak it to the point of it dripping. Something as simple as olive oil will do. Cut the patch at the muzzle. Begin shooting three shots aiming at the same spot on the target. Do NOT adjust your sights or change anything at this point, you are just finding what powder charge your rifle "likes". I suggest you take a notebook or just a piece of paper to write down your results, including temperature, humidity, wind, etc. Anyway, take three shots, then increase your powder charge by 5 grains and repeat. At some point your groups should tighten up, then get bigger. Reduce by 5 grains and you've found the most accurate charge for your rifle. Only then should you adjust your sights or change any other variable. I suggest that you swab the bore between shots or every third shot using a cotton flannel patch that is barely dampened with rubbing alcohol. Less is more and swabbing is just down and up, then discard the patch. You can find both types of material at the local fabric store and sometimes Wallyworld.

The depth of rifling will affect the ability to stabilize a lead conical as much as the rate of twist so you may not get decent accuracy from your rifle using one. As to what is acceptable for your needs and the conditions where you hunt I cannot say. In my experience the addition of a lubed fiber was always increased accuracy with any conical I tried. However, a .50 PRB is a proven game getter if you put it in the vital zone.

So, free advice is just that; free What works in one rifle may not work in exactly the same caliber and model. Ultimately, it's up to you to do the work but I find that to be half the fun! Your mileage may vary. Good luck regardless.

Thank you very much for the advice. I haven’t used a lead projectile in 25 years. I was very, very fond of sabots

 

[William O.]

Thank you very much for the advice. I haven’t used a lead projectile in 25 years. I was very, very fond of sabots

When I first started out shooting muzzleloaders I tried them too. I had to learn the hard way that when using a substitute powder that burns hotter than traditional black, plastic skirted projectiles tend to become one with the bore and render cleaning an exercise in futility. The other thing I learned is why use a projectile that is of smaller caliber than the rifle barrel shooting it, all the while hoping that it's going to expand in diameter? At one time I had a rifle with a fast twist and shallow rifling that would make one ragged hole in the target where the center was at 75 yards all day long. However, it required a max powder charge in order to do that, which wasn't very pleasant on my shoulder. I've no doubt that it would go lengthwise through a bull elk but would it make the animal more dead than a .54 round ball through its heart from my other rifle? That I can shoot all day with a full powder charge that isn't near maximum and Im not afraid to pull the trigger!
It's always surprising how well the lowly lead round ball will perform on game as long as you don't expect it to be a long range CF weapon.

 

[FishDFly]

Actually sabots are not discussed here.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thank you very much for the advice. I haven’t used a lead projectile in 25 years. I was very, very fond of sabots

As was just mentioned, we don't talk about those projectiles here.

But you're new so no harm done..., and before I forget WELCOME BACK!

Now in your case, Investarms ML rifles, are either 1:48 twist or 1:60 twist in their barrels. If the barrel is 28" it is certainly a 1:48 twist on the rifling. SO as such, you should be using a lead conical, or a patched round ball (imho)

.490 Patched round ball out of a lot of rifles, is highly accurate, and has plenty of umph to take down a deer or even an elk. But if you want a bit more impact, then I'd suggest you look into a Lee brand REAL bullet, bullet mold. They are known to work quite well too.

You might check Montana law since the season is new, and see if they specified a powder charge like they do here in Maryland. That will cut down on your developing a load for your rifle, since there's no reason to test a powder charge that is less than the legal requirement, eh?

IF Montana specifies an "energy" level, then you need to know your velocity, and your bullet weight. You can get an approximation by using the GOEX ballistic chart... it's not that accurate, though because the bullet weights are wrong, so the velocity will likely be higher in real life. I suggest as others have written, 3Fg black powder. This will give you a "ball park" idea of where to start testing your loads for accuracy.

GOEX BALLISTICS

So there you have it. Good luck in the field.

LD

 

[Montanafreak]

Update: Montana has decided that only pure lead projectiles may be used. So I will be using TC Maxi Hunter 350gr rounds. I grabbed a new can of Pyrodex and will be out this weekend seeing how it goes. I think I will start with 90 grains.
Investarms Hawkens 50 cal
TC Maxi Hunter pre lubed projectile
Musket Cap
Starting with 80gr of Pyrodex

 

[William O.]

Update: Montana has decided that only pure lead projectiles may be used. So I will be using TC Maxi Hunter 350gr rounds. I grabbed a new can of Pyrodex and will be out this weekend seeing how it goes. I think I will start with 90 grains.
Investarms Hawkens 50 cal
TC Maxi Hunter pre lubed projectile
Musket Cap
Starting with 80gr of Pyrodex

I would start a bit lower on the powder charge and also add a fiber wad between the Powder and bullet. 60 grains and work up from there. My personal preference is to use a self adhesive target on top of the regular paper target that reveals brightly colored paint when hit, Shoot and See I think is one brand but there are usually several to choose from at the store. I have a terrible time seeing where I hit on a paper target farther that about 40 yards and don't like to use a spotting scope after every shot. Don't be afraid of trying different weights and brands of conical bullets either. My fast twist rifle got excellent grouping with lighter bullets and accuracy dropped off as bullets got heavier. 1 inch groups using a 220 grain Lee REAL bullet were repeated many times.

 

[nkbj]

.50 maxihunter in a 28" barrel...
Try hot rodding it if a rainbow trajectory will matter much. If the accuracy isn't good enough try a 9/16" gasket punch with lubed felt or cardboard. Or both, to keep the lube off the powder and just to be sure that gas cutting isn't jacking with accuracy.
Remember it's a hunting load and that means starting out with the power level your terrain, the distances, the animals and situations demand and then figgerin' out how to make it accurate.

 

[Winterhawk]

What are you going to be hunting? For elk or moose, a heavy projectile may be needed. For deer, a .50 patched round ball will be very lethal and less pain on the shoulder. You don't need a heavy powder charge - start with 1 1/2 times the caliber, so for your .50 that would be 75 grains and work up and down from that to find your most accurate load. Actually, I believe Pyrodex is supposed to be 10% hotter than real black (IIRC) so you could cut back to 70 grains for a starting load.

Also, Hodgden has stopped making GOEX and OLDE EYNSFORD powders, but Scheutzen is still available, if you want to go with the real stuff (and save some money while you're at it).

 

[Crow-Feather]

I am pulling my Investarms 50 Hawken ML out of retirement due to Montana having a season now. I am familiar with ML as i use to hunt back home in Michigan a lot but I used my Black Diamond for the last 10 years i did it.
My question is, what's the best powder to use, how many grains? I checked the barrel with a camera (I always was very thorough cleaning it) and all seems well. I will be using .45cal sabot rounds. I will be using MUSKET Caps as the ignition source. My mind tells me i ran 90-100gr of Pyrodex but after 20 years i better check with the group experts. Thank you in advance for the assistance.

If your load isn't accurate, it might be because those rifles weren't made to shoot plastic sabots. You might first find out if your barrel twist is for round balls or for sabots. A heavy charge with a plastic sabot might not give the pistol bullet a fast enough twist. I believe barrels for that type of bullet was a 1/24 twist.

 

[retrieverman]

Actually sabots are not discussed here.

Karen has spoken.

 

[Montanafreak]

Well I was fortunate enough to find another Investarms 50 for my wife in absolutely beautiful condition. Both are sighted in. They really like 350 grain TC Maxi Hunters. 90 grains Pyrodex. It’s too late to readjust this season but next year I am going to try some 275 grain to see if I can flatten out the arc. And who knows, maybe Montana will dump its pure lead rule by then.