Over 50 hours of carving later...

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Unless you're going to pursue hand engraving on a larger scale I would not purchase a liner tool, the above star was cut with a square graver as 99% of all longrifle engraving is cut solely with a square tool. Not sure if you have the tooling to make a holder for the graver or not, if not then you're limited to purchasing.

On Steve Lindsay's site he carries stainless holders for $56.50 plus shipping, paired up with a square graver and a small lightweight hammer you'll be able to duplicate most anything longrifle related.

It's a slippery slope as you'll need some literature also to explain how to sharpen a square graver, the John Shippers book, also on Steve's site is a great resource for longrifle builders as well, it shows the typical style of longrifle engraving, how to make the cuts, and how to sharpen the tooling.

 

[Jerry Samouce]

Unless you're going to pursue hand engraving on a larger scale I would not purchase a liner tool, the above star was cut with a square graver as 99% of all longrifle engraving is cut solely with a square tool. Not sure if you have the tooling to make a holder for the graver or not, if not then you're limited to purchasing.

On Steve Lindsay's site he carries stainless holders for $56.50 plus shipping, paired up with a square graver and a small lightweight hammer you'll be able to duplicate most anything longrifle related.

It's a slippery slope as you'll need some literature also to explain how to sharpen a square graver, the John Shippers book, also on Steve's site is a great resource for longrifle builders as well, it shows the typical style of longrifle engraving, how to make the cuts, and how to sharpen the tooling.

uuuugh... I am soo confused... This look like a deep rabbit hole...
Do I really need buy all these tools for JUST ONE STAR?

You have these tools already and unlike me, you also have a clue how to use them... The larger star blank is $3 and the engraving is all straight lines.
How much would you charge me for you to simply engrave one or two german silver stars like the one in the earlier photos?
and mail them to me?

I just need one star for now to get to the next step of staining... I can get all into engraving later...
can you help me here?

 

[theC525]

Wow! Thanks for all of the information! Here is what I am planning to use as a finish.

It is fairly dark. I have used the pencil technique before on furniture with a darker Danish oil... The pencil turns dark but also sort of devolves into a shadow effect...

Here is what I order from tracking the wolf.
View attachment 64148

Look, I want you to please try some carving on a scrap piece of wood and do your pencil thing on/ in it then do the staining, see how it comes out.
I don't like Tru-oil because I think it darkens up too much over time. I use WATCO's, Natural Danish Oil after staining with the Laurel Mountain stains or Aqua Fortis (which takes more time but is more traditional). You can "bleed" some stain out by taking some extra fine steelwool, dipping it in the danish oil and going over the stock, this will also bring out the highs and lows (Read curl) in the grain. I put at least 3 coats of danish on and let it soak in.
Now give it a rest for say a day or so, put the barrel back in. Come back with some linseed oil over the whole thing go easy on it and don't "flood" it or it will stay sticky forever! Assemble the gun, pipes, lock, butt plate, trigger plate and trigger guard, all of it.
Now get a small plastic bowl and put some linseed oil in it, pour yourself some good single malt, turn on a good show and sit down with your rifle and rub that linseed oil into the wood WELL over the course of a few days. Try to keep the oil off the brass but if you get it on just wipe it off, you can use burlap or an old "shop towel" to buff the wood out. That's how you build up a good, hand rubbed finish. Once the oil is dry you will not need to seal the stock, in fact you shouldn't seal it. Every now and then over the year just rub in some linseed oil and you should be good. Look, if you do this right your wife should get jealous of your rifle and the way you rub it all the time! LOL!

 

[Jerry Samouce]

Look, I want you to please try some carving on a scrap piece of wood and do your pencil thing on/ in it then do the staining, see how it comes out.
I don't like Tru-oil because I think it darkens up too much over time. I use WATCO's, Natural Danish Oil after staining with the Laurel Mountain stains or Aqua Fortis (which takes more time but is more traditional). You can "bleed" some stain out by taking some extra fine steelwool, dipping it in the danish oil and going over the stock, this will also bring out the highs and lows (Read curl) in the grain. I put at least 3 coats of danish on and let it soak in.
Now give it a rest for say a day or so, put the barrel back in. Come back with some linseed oil over the whole thing go easy on it and don't "flood" it or it will stay sticky forever! Assemble the gun, pipes, lock, butt plate, trigger plate and trigger guard, all of it.
Now get a small plastic bowl and put some linseed oil in it, pour yourself some good single malt, turn on a good show and sit down with your rifle and rub that linseed oil into the wood WELL over the course of a few days. Try to keep the oil off the brass but if you get it on just wipe it off, you can use burlap or an old "shop towel" to buff the wood out. That's how you build up a good, hand rubbed finish. Once the oil is dry you will not need to seal the stock, in fact you shouldn't seal it. Every now and then over the year just rub in some linseed oil and you should be good. Look, if you do this right your wife should get jealous of your rifle and the way you rub it all the time! LOL!

I still have my practice block. But it is Hollywood... I can still run some stain over it first.

 

[theC525]

I still have my practice block. But it is Hollywood... I can still run some stain over it first.

If you have some of the off cut from when the stock was band sawed use that. Different woods react to stain differently.

 

[ZUG]

I would send out your inlays and stuff for someone to engrave them -- I have used Smitty's Engraving Service in Harrah, OK. He is good, good turn-a-round time and very reasonable pricing. I write a letter telling him what I want (enclose a picture of what you want also) pack up the parts and send them off. If he requires more info he will contact you.

As for the finish you can get a good look with LMF stains and Permalyn sealer alone just build up the coats of sealer. If it ends too shinny for you just use Rottenstone and water or mineral oil mix and gentle rub back the shine. Chamber' oil finish is also a good one. With all that carving I would go with the Chambers oil finish.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I just need one star for now to get to the next step of staining... I can get all into engraving later...
can you help me here?

Yes I can help, it would be ideal if you purchased your star(s) fitted them to the curvature of your cheek piece and inlet them, then send to me for cutting. Hammers, files, and sandpaper will negatively affect the final engraving.

 

[hanshi]

Whoa! You evermore have that stock carving down! And it's so intricate; you did a wonderful job, IMHO.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Only 50 hours? That's a lot of work you got done in only that much time. If you are going to model them rather than leave them flat topped you will be closer to 200 or maybe 300 hours. You clearly enjoy the carving part, and are not in a hurry to "just get it done" so why not? That will let you pick at the shapes a whole bunch more too. Raised carving gives you options that way that incised carving does not. The more you stare at individual volutes and curves, the more you see little flaws in them. Others may not, but YOU will, and you're the customer you have to please in the end. Things like scallops that aren't quite even---a little bit of an elbow remaining---I'm not saying that yours are off. I didn't look at it that closely to see, but there are ALWAYS things that can be improved. The closer you look at it, the more you will see. Some times you have to wait a day or two to see it though.

Yes, the metal definitely needs to be engraved. In fact, the gun would look sort of odd if it had that level of carving and no engraving. Cheek star, left side plate, lock, toe plate. Up to you if you want to do more on the tang, TP, BP return, and entry pipe tail. If you choose to go easy anywhere, that would be the MC. Some times all it takes is a small line border on a small piece (like a wedge estrucheon) to give it a "yup, he did that part too" look.

The Engravers Cafe (it's a forum site) is a great place to hang out and look at engraving and pick up techniques.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Yes, the metal definitely needs to be engraved. In fact, the gun would look sort of odd if it had that level of carving and no engraving. Cheek star, left side plate, lock, toe plate. Up to you if you want to do more on the tang, TP, BP return, and entry pipe tail. If you choose to go easy anywhere, that would be the MC. Some times all it takes is a small line border on a small piece (like a wedge estrucheon) to give it a "yup, he did that part too" look.

The Engravers Cafe (it's a forum site) is a great place to hang out and look at engraving and pick up techniques.

^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^

That said, engraving is not a skill that is easily acquired, many many hours of practice and many more studying technique just to learn the control required to cut a straight line of even depth, or a tapered line to effectively give the illusion of depth.

If you slip or miss your mark there is no easy way to erase the mistake................................

This is an old piece engraved when I first started in 2007, the lettering was just finished recently as it's cut on the convex surface.

 

[BV]

I look at some of these guns you guys do and wish I had even a modicum of artistic ability.

 

[LongJnSilver]

If you are asking about inletting the star I use an exacto knife with a #11 blade, I grind off about a 1/16" of the tip ( grind at about a 30 angle and buff the blade on a wheel, it's like strapping the blade) so it will not snap off in the wood while I'm carving/ cutting. As for engravers, you can get them fron Track or Rio Grand I would get a 5 line shader an oglet and a knife graver. You will need to put handles on them, also you'll need a lite chasing hammer, I got a nice one at A.C. Moore in the jewelry making section, You need to sharpen them with/ at a 45 degree angle with about a 30 degree angle on the under side so that you can "peel out" of your work. Remember, they MUST be sharp or you'll booger it all up, check them by pushing the tip against your thumb nail, if they skip and leave a white line they aren't sharp, if they hit and stick they are ready (kind of like checking a fishing hook). Track offers a good book about engraving, "The Art of Engraving" that I would suggest you get before going forward. Practice on something else like you did with the carving before you go for the star. Remember to keep a steady hand and DON'T RUSH, if you get off a bit don't try to go back over it and correct it, just work it in to the design, otherwise it will look like ***.
As a gun smith you have to be proficient in several things like metal fabrication, wood carving, lock smithing and engraving, all of these things come together to build a gun that is graceful and pleasing to one's eye. As for those people who say "I'd never take it hunting" SHAME on them! I have built myself and others rifles into the 5000.00 range and shoot matches and hunt with them all the time. Why not? That's what they were intended for!
Matter of fact, if I hear "I'd never take it hunting" I usually up the price by 500.00!

"... otherwise it will look like ***." So... on a butt stock, what's wrong with that? No, SERIOUSLY, love this advice from you "senior statesmen." I'm in awe of the expertise to be found on this forum! Bless you all.

 

[LongJnSilver]

MBS? which graver will i need to do this type of simple line cut seen in this example?View attachment 64225

Ars longa, vita brevis

 

[oldwood]

The size of the star on that rifle should be the big one. Good job on the decoration...Seat the inletted star inlay in brown epoxie , let harden , sand off the metal and wood , polish w/ 0000 steel wool , engrave. Don't forget to wear your magnifier ............oldwood

 

[Omahkapi'si]

Exquisite work. As for the metal engraving, depending on where you live if there's any western horse bit & spur makers around, you could get some expert advice. Most of the custom guys do awesome work.

 

[Crawfish]

Just a wonderful job! Piece of art, really! Well done!...........if it were mine, I would choose the big one!

 

[SOLANCO]

Sweet rifle. Very, very well done.

 

[Col. Batguano]

This is just my opinion, but, I don't happen to like any of those stars (as shown). Something about the proportions to them makes them look a little bit "clunky" to me when applied to the rest of the gun and how it's developing. The straightness of the arms seem too "geometrical" to me, especially the big one. You have lots and lots of curves and "fancification" in your carving. Why disrupt that "flow" with an inlay that is so straight in its' features? You can certainly modify what you have by filing a bit of a nuanced curve in to it.

Or, do it the easy and faster way; get yourself a couple of pieces of graph paper and draw a couple, cut them out, and try them in place before you commit yourself to them. I would start by just tracing around the ones that you have and then just snipping out little bits here and there (on the paper). See if you can "get there", before you start memorializing things in metal.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Folks,
This is a short essay I wrote 10 years ago for the ALR gun building forum about learning to engrave. It may clear some things up. One essential piece of advice is learn to sharpen your gravers properly and efficiently. If you don't, your engraving will show it.

"A couple of recent threads posed by folks trying to get started with engraving motivated me to start this thread. For most people, engraving probably is one of the most intimidating skills to learn. You get everything just right on your gun, the inletting, architecture, inlays, carving, and finish, and then risk it all trying to scratch in a few attractive lines. Unfortunately, the books and videos available are somewhat helpful but their value is pretty limited. If you are lucky to have access to a class with a good instructor, that is probably the best option. If you are like me, your options for training are limited and you end up mostly teaching yourself. Also, the intimidating nature of engraving tends to make folks reluctant to spend much money on it when they begin because they are not sure they can do it and they don’t want to waste limited funds. Consequently, the perceived difficulty of engraving becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for some because they don’t invest money in the critical rudiments and thus find it too hard to do and give up trying. With that in mind, I thought I would share a few observations about the process of learning to engrave:

Don’t get hung up on the tools. You only need a large square graver for outlining and borders, a small square for shading and details, and a small flat for removing backgrounds. You can make chisel handles and a lightweight chasing hammer will do. Spend some money on a good setup for sharpening. I recommend stones and the Lindsay templates but there are other options. Just make sure you have a system that does the job well and is easy to do. You must sharpen your graver very, very often and the last thing you need is some awkward setup that makes sharpening a tedious chore. It should just take a few moments with little fuss or you simply won't do it when you should.

Spend some thought and money on lighting and magnification. You cannot engrave what you cannot see. You must see the tip of the graver clearly or you will never engrave details very well. In addition, create a vise system that allows you to spin the work and tilt it as needed. Lighting, magnification, and a vise system are very important and unless you spend the time and resources on obtaining some workable version of them, engraving will be intimidating indeed.

Don't try to do scroll work until you master engraving a line that is even and straight. Practice thin and thick lines that follow a border or another line. Master parallel lines and the thick and thin border. In fact, if you never do anything more than a thick and thin border you will have achieved a lot. That border is often all you need to make an inlay, lock, butt plate, or trigger guard look like a million bucks.

After mastering lines, try scolls, but first learn to draw them smoothly and transfer your designs to the metal. Here is where a problem arises. First, if you cannot draw a smooth curve or good design, you cannot engrave it either. Second, you need a precise image of your design on the metal. Many buy layout white or Chinese white, coat the metal and draw the design on with a pencil. Probably most of you are not steady enough to draw a smooth clean design without "sketching" it with the pencil. Sketching results in fuzzy imprecise lines that are difficult to follow accurately with the graver because the width of the sketched pencil mark is several times the width of the engraved line. The imprecision of the line is often enough to make your engraved results look rough. If you draw directly on the metal, use a very sharp pencil for a thin line and practice drawing smooth shapes without resorting to "sketching" them. I suggest that you use a mechanical pencil with 0.3mm leads sharpened to a tiny point using sand paper or a fine file. Better are the transfer solutions available to copy images from transparencies produced by inkjet or laserjet printers. Keep in mind, that after having a sharp graver and learning to cut a smooth line, nothing improves your engraving more than a good design accurately transferred to the metal.

At first don't worry about fancy cuts, angling the graver for making lines grow thick, removing background and other sophisticated methods and skills. Just learn to cut smooth lines of even thickness. If you master that and can draw designs well you will produce engraving equal to or probably better than the vast majority of work found on original long rifles. Finally, there are many technical details and methods to eventually absorb, but the few things I mentioned are the key things that I found really mattered as I learned and continue to learn. "

dave

 

[pooch156]

Absolutely beautiful work!