Over loading a 1858.

[rafterob]

Back in my day you could make tennis ball cannons out of steel soda cans and use lighter fluid as a propellant. Well, one of your relatives in my neighborhood decided to use gasoline instead. Severed most of his right hand off and shredded the left side of his face. Thank god you fared better. Play hard but play safe :thumbsup:

 

[himem777]

All I ever lost was my eyebrows, but that was my friends fault for moving the powder close to where i was working and could not see him. To my credit my our wire guided missile program was not working. We could not get the wires long enough.

Now (as Paul Harvey would say) here is the rest of the story, what I did was studied in full before I did it. I saw where other people had done this and did a work up load. There were no ill affects to myself or the gun. I did not want to say that because I wanted to dissuade anyone else from trying what someone else on the form said was possible.

IF any Moderators want to PM me I will tell You about my data.

Just because I tested it and it worked dose not mean that it is safe for you.
I would not have posted this, but I do not like being thrown into the Idiot category. I tested this and did the research it came out as I suspected. I still think that that this is a bad idea with little reason to do it, but my scientific mind could not let it go without testing it. It is just the way I am. :idunno:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

What was your research?

 

[nkbj]

Does crushing Pyrodex significantly alter the burning rate?

I tried CTG grade long ago in an 1800's single shot 9.5mm bore rifle but never made compressed loads that would crush a bunch of the beads of propellant. Does it jack up the pressures?

 

[himem777]

I have tested it lite compression vs no compression some change. lite compression vs heavy compression no change. This is good news for the single shot boys, you do not have to worry over compressing it, that is unless you compress it so far so it becomes 4f. :rotf:

 

[tljack]

If you compress black very much, it will turn rock hard.

 

[himem777]

Well if you compress it hard enough long enough you have something like anthracite coal, or at least Lignite.

 

[mykeal]

Does crushing Pyrodex significantly alter the burning rate?

Very good question, with apparently conflicting answers:

I have tested it lite compression vs no compression some change. lite compression vs heavy compression no change.

Heavily compressed Pyrodex can cause SERIOUS increases in pressure.

So I went to the Hodgdon's web site. Unfortunately, it's a bit confusing; there is an overt and clear warning about heavy compression using 777 being dangerous, but nothing about Pyrodex. They do say to use light compression with Pyrodex, but do not warn that it is dangerous to use heavy compression.

Does anyone have any pressure data vs varying amounts of compression?

 

[Greg Hardy]

That's the problem with a lot of the old standards, they have been around so long that all the initial warnings and hazards tend to be forgotten somewhat. We have to remember to Dan Pawlak, the man that essentially invented Pyrodex, he was killed in a fire at the plant. The demonstration he made about how safe it was. From what I recall, he pretty much made a pipe bomb out of it, slammed it around and even hammered it... In all truth this is the first I've ever heard about grossly compressing it. Of course, I never really cared for it and rarely use it. My question is, what about the pellets? seems to me they are pretty compressed to begin with, so, if used in a revolver, wouldn't that compress it even more? I have to presume the formulation is somewhat different for the pellets for just such a situation.

 

[himem777]

I have the msds for the Pirodex, and it is the same for the pellets and the loose powder. That dose not mean that there are nonflammable agents used in the pellets that are not listed, but it is unlikely. This probably means they are wet formed like the model rocket motors.

 

[himem777]

Here it is http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Files/Muzzleloading/Pyrodex.pdf

 

[Geraldo]

I have tested it lite compression vs no compression some change. lite compression vs heavy compression no change. This is good news for the single shot boys, you do not have to worry over compressing it, that is unless you compress it so far so it becomes 4f. :rotf:

Tested how? Did you have actual pressure testing equipment? How would I measure "lite compression" to duplicate these "safe" loads?

I'm not trying to be mean to you, but such "testing" is meaningless if you can't tell me anything quantifiable in the end. All I know is that whatever you did worked X number of times in your guns without blowing anything up.

I do not understand what inspiration causes people to overload muzzleloaders or cartridges. If you saw a sleeping bear, would you just have to go over and kick it in the nose?

 

[himem777]

Please do not confuse the two issues 1 Overloading 2the compression question. As for your will your gun blow up, thats simple "play it safe assume it will!". The whole point was there is NO good reason to do it. There are to many negatives and not enough positives.

As for the bear, I would poke it. :grin:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Your mistake was using Pyrodex. The same load of BP is safe. I've shot thousands of shots to prove it.

 

[Geraldo]

Please do not confuse the two issues 1 Overloading 2the compression question. As for your will your gun blow up, thats simple "play it safe assume it will!". The whole point was there is NO good reason to do it. There are to many negatives and not enough positives.

As for the bear, I would poke it. :grin:

Matchlock, I'm not looking for data because I'm not going to try any of this. If I want to load as much as powder as a chamber can hold I've got an ROA. My point is that non-scientific testing is meaningless. Your tests neither proved nor disproved anything.

I did figure you for a "poke the bear" kind of guy.

 

[himem777]

What load do you refer to Capper? Do you over load your C/B pistol? If that is what you are saying it gives more credence to the practice. I know that you are an experienced member and well respected amongst men with black stains on there fingers.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I doubt i'm respected here, but I have been shooting C&B revolvers for a lot of years.

I shoot C&B revolvers in CAS shooting. Since it's not a class you can be fast in. I choose to make big bangs and lots of smoke.

I use 2F BP, and just fill the chambers. Not dangerous at all. I don't think it would be with 3F either, because I know some shooters who use it and fill the chambers.

I burn two cases a year of BP. My guns have thousands of shots in them. I've had zero problems running my loads. We shoot gongs, so absolute accuracy is not critical. I would use a lesser load for paper targets. (which I hate)

As I said though. Pyrodex builds more pressure than BP.

Go to a CAS forum, and ask if it's ok to fill the chamber with BP. I'll be surprised if anybody says no. Maybe the guys who use sissy loads will. :grin:

 

[t.l.a.r. eng]

Did the hammer blow back when fired and by how much?
Did it blow back enough to reset on 1/2 cock or full cock or neither?
Which brand of 1858?[/quote]

Curious to know the answer as well.

 

[arcticap]

No there was no adverse affects what so ever, but I still do not recommend doing it again. There is just no reason to do it. It is a 5.5 inch barrel Pietta 1858 replica.

I understood his reply to my post as meaning that the hammer didn't blow back at all or reset in any way.
Pietta 1858 mainsprings are relatively strong and if the gun still has factory nipples installed, then the combination must have worked well enough to prevent the hammer from blowing back.
I can't say that would hold true for every 1858 though.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Factory nipples would blow back more than Treso nipples. I can't see it not blowing back with stock nipples.

Hard to know if it doesn't catch half cock. Recoil and smoke probably had his attention.