Glad to here your building one. Let us know how it turns out. I really like the "pied de vasche" stock shape. The ToW stock is the only one that has that extream shape. Jim Chamber's lock looks just like the 1729 pattern, if you changed the frizzen spring to one with an external screw. I'm sure the Davis lock is a good one, or ToW wouldn't use it.
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Over-Looked Smoothbore
- Thread starter musketman
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I have not heard any bad press about the Davis Tulle locks,
and the modifications atre not a major task, I waited for several months on the "comming soon" Davis Tulle lock patterned after an original but it never happened so I went with what was available, I've got all the furniture and the barrel polished and aged and the buttplate installed and am now working down the wood aft of the lock panels whereever needed, I chose to use files, rasps and scrapers only on this one ...no sandpaper, I did add 16 flats between the 8 flats and the wedding band, this is more typical of the barrels on these guns, I will get some pics as things get moving, I may have to have a friend bring down the forestock, a cronic shoulder ailment is likely to prevent the nice even strokes required for that task.....he is better at it than I am anyway (VBG)
and the modifications atre not a major task, I waited for several months on the "comming soon" Davis Tulle lock patterned after an original but it never happened so I went with what was available, I've got all the furniture and the barrel polished and aged and the buttplate installed and am now working down the wood aft of the lock panels whereever needed, I chose to use files, rasps and scrapers only on this one ...no sandpaper, I did add 16 flats between the 8 flats and the wedding band, this is more typical of the barrels on these guns, I will get some pics as things get moving, I may have to have a friend bring down the forestock, a cronic shoulder ailment is likely to prevent the nice even strokes required for that task.....he is better at it than I am anyway (VBG)
Hmmmm. thats interisting. the picture of the Colrain barrel in the ToW catalog shows it going from 8 sides to 16. I know the originals went to 16 for only about 2", or so it looks. I was also wondering about how it is made. I had a Jackie Brown barrel on a gun, and while talking to ToW they said they thought his barrels were somewhat inferior because they were mandril wound construction. It never shot the same way twice. Maybe thats why. Have you heard of any thing like that? Oh well hope it turns out good for you.
The Colrain barrel that came with my parts was oct to rd, some of the TOW barrels for the NW guns have the additional 16 flats allready filed, unfortunately I have a JB oct to rd barrel on one gun, I think he makes them out of tubing, it is straight oct then goes to rd...real funky, it does shoot ok but the pile of parts I got from him was pretty sad overall.
Guest
If the smoothrifles could talk you would probably hear two different stories from their own muzzles.
Some of them were definately reamed out rifles, smoothbored to extend their lives.
Others were built as smooth rifles.
I had one reference from a ledger entry, while I was researching in grad school several years back, where the gunsmith charged $9 to build a "smoothrifle" as opposed to his charge of $12 for a standard rifle. He specifically refered to the new gun as a "smoothrifle".
The last figures I heard from anyone I trusted stated that their count of guns they had examined in private and public collections was running around 60/40 rifle to smoothbore for guns with sights.
:hmm:
Some of them were definately reamed out rifles, smoothbored to extend their lives.
Others were built as smooth rifles.
I had one reference from a ledger entry, while I was researching in grad school several years back, where the gunsmith charged $9 to build a "smoothrifle" as opposed to his charge of $12 for a standard rifle. He specifically refered to the new gun as a "smoothrifle".
The last figures I heard from anyone I trusted stated that their count of guns they had examined in private and public collections was running around 60/40 rifle to smoothbore for guns with sights.
:hmm:
Guest
I am just finishing a smoothbore that I had been thinking about for the last couple of years and I am almost done. It is an attempt at a virginia style gun with an oct to rd barrel in a .40. As mentioned before some were probably reamed so this is my version of a small caliber smoothbore. I intend to hunt rabbit and squirrel with it. I have had a few doubles and a english cape gun but this will be my first flinter smoothbore. 
Guest
I had a smoothbore in .44 and used .410 cups in it with card wads. It shot well with just the card wads, 2 on the powder and 1 over the shot, but did better with the plastic, of course. The plastic wads might be too large for a .40, I don't know. You'll have to try them if you want. Do use a card wad betwen the plastic and the powder, though, to prevent plastic from melting onto the bore. BP is very hot when it burns and will melt the plastic cup.
: With patched round ball, my accuracy was good enough to hold up to rifle fire to about 40 yards, and to hit rabbits to 50yds. & perhaps a bit further. At 25yds. it would make cloverleaf groups. I used 45gr. 2F. for both 1/2 ounce of shot and the patched RB.
: With patched round ball, my accuracy was good enough to hold up to rifle fire to about 40 yards, and to hit rabbits to 50yds. & perhaps a bit further. At 25yds. it would make cloverleaf groups. I used 45gr. 2F. for both 1/2 ounce of shot and the patched RB.
TOW offers two packages, one is for the so called Types C and D which is a fusil fin de chasse and the other is the fusil ordinaire de chasse.The former is fitted for a R E Davis German Jaeger lock and the latter is fitted for a R E Davis French fusil lock.The fusil ordinaire de chasse is the iron mounted gun with the extreme convex comb and concave under butt which architecture is called a pied de vache or cows foot.The French fusil lock is OK but needs a bit of tweaking on the frizzen and especially the cock in order to be fairly correct.The original fusils fin {Type C and D} had basically the same lock as the fusil ordnaire.The only banana locks used on these early French guns were the round faced banana shape found on the 1696 Marine fusils used by the Conpagnies de Franches and 5 flat banana locks specified in the Tulle 1696 contract for the Indian chiefs.Fusil fins were usually mounted in brass which began to appear on French guns in the late 17th century and had a straighter comb and under butt than the pied de vache guns. They also had less drop than the others. It may be,as Russel Bouchard has suggested, that the brass mounted fusil fins de chasse were primarily sent to the Mississippi Valley area of New France and the the iron mounted fusils ordinaire de chasse were primarily sent north to Canada with the probable reason being that the iron mounted guns were not suited to the humidity of the southern climate,although Hamilton shows a Type D in iron.I don't know where the idea originated that the fusils fin de chasse should have a German jaeger lock rather than a correct French lock and I have on occasion suggested that any one wishing to use a TOW kit for Type C and D fusils buy a stock without the lock mortice cut and then use the French Tulle lock with some modifications.The fusil ordinaire is OK but should have plain iron mounts with the solid plain sideplate rather than the pierced and solid sideplate sometimes used.That particular sideplate was found on a left handed fusil fin which was not an ordinary trade gun.
If you want to build a fusil fin {the so called Type C and D}the best kit on the market is the R E Davis fusil fin kit.This gun dates from about 1730 to the 1740's and features a correct 48 in barrel{which could be shortened to suit personal taste} with a 1& 1/4 in. breech{correct for early French guns}and a sighting rib on the top of the barrel{also correct for high quality early French fusils fin}.These barrels are being made by Ed Rayl and are fine for early French fusils fin and in iron mounted Fusil ordinaires built from scratch .The mounts are the same as on the fusil fin for sale by TOW and I think the builder got his parts from Davis.
A final note: In relying on T. M. Hamilton who has THREE books out including "Colonial Frontier Guns" {1980}"you must remember that his classifications are archealogical and should be considered in that[url] context.In[/url] his first book,"Early Indian Trade Guns:1625-1775"{1968}he listed Types A-R.The third book is "Firearms On The Frontier:Guns at Fort Michilimacinac 1715-1781"{1976}Much research has been done since 1980 and there are other sources on the market. More is known about these early French and English guns such as the extreme likelihood that as many as 65-75% of the known Fusils ordinaire de chasse {pied de vache} are period restocks.French guns were stocked in walnut as were usually the restocks although I'm sure other woods were used.I seriously doubt,however,that very many if any were period restocked in curly maple.
I'm new on this forum but I saw the topic on smoothbores and a thread on French guns and since this has been a subject for my research for the past 7 years I thought I would jump in.I hope I haven't bored you with my opinions on these guns which have been a fascinating area of study.
Tom Patton aka Okwaho
If you want to build a fusil fin {the so called Type C and D}the best kit on the market is the R E Davis fusil fin kit.This gun dates from about 1730 to the 1740's and features a correct 48 in barrel{which could be shortened to suit personal taste} with a 1& 1/4 in. breech{correct for early French guns}and a sighting rib on the top of the barrel{also correct for high quality early French fusils fin}.These barrels are being made by Ed Rayl and are fine for early French fusils fin and in iron mounted Fusil ordinaires built from scratch .The mounts are the same as on the fusil fin for sale by TOW and I think the builder got his parts from Davis.
A final note: In relying on T. M. Hamilton who has THREE books out including "Colonial Frontier Guns" {1980}"you must remember that his classifications are archealogical and should be considered in that[url] context.In[/url] his first book,"Early Indian Trade Guns:1625-1775"{1968}he listed Types A-R.The third book is "Firearms On The Frontier:Guns at Fort Michilimacinac 1715-1781"{1976}Much research has been done since 1980 and there are other sources on the market. More is known about these early French and English guns such as the extreme likelihood that as many as 65-75% of the known Fusils ordinaire de chasse {pied de vache} are period restocks.French guns were stocked in walnut as were usually the restocks although I'm sure other woods were used.I seriously doubt,however,that very many if any were period restocked in curly maple.
I'm new on this forum but I saw the topic on smoothbores and a thread on French guns and since this has been a subject for my research for the past 7 years I thought I would jump in.I hope I haven't bored you with my opinions on these guns which have been a fascinating area of study.
Tom Patton aka Okwaho
Last edited by a moderator:
Great post on the fusils, sums it up in a nut shell.
I have a fusil ordinaire de chasse I built while back, has a 46 inch Getz swamped oct. to rd. in .62 cal. (20 ga. )bbl. I have come to love the cows foot butt stock. When I first saw one, I thought it was just plain mud duck ugly, but when I threw it up to shoulder, I knew I had to have one. I stocked it in very plain maple stained dark with all iron furniture. The RE Davis lock did take a bit more tuning that I anticipated.
The piece mounts and gets on target like a dream, it is the most natural pointing long gun I have ever owned. Mine is what they were designed as, a very ordinary day to day using gun.
I am now getting a bit nervous, afraid I might get to handle and shoot a early Dutch club butt fowler, it is another rather odd looking firelock which owners praise highly. But, as in the fusil de chase, the beauty of the thing may be in it's pure utilitarian performance'
I have a fusil ordinaire de chasse I built while back, has a 46 inch Getz swamped oct. to rd. in .62 cal. (20 ga. )bbl. I have come to love the cows foot butt stock. When I first saw one, I thought it was just plain mud duck ugly, but when I threw it up to shoulder, I knew I had to have one. I stocked it in very plain maple stained dark with all iron furniture. The RE Davis lock did take a bit more tuning that I anticipated.
The piece mounts and gets on target like a dream, it is the most natural pointing long gun I have ever owned. Mine is what they were designed as, a very ordinary day to day using gun.
I am now getting a bit nervous, afraid I might get to handle and shoot a early Dutch club butt fowler, it is another rather odd looking firelock which owners praise highly. But, as in the fusil de chase, the beauty of the thing may be in it's pure utilitarian performance'
Tanstaafl, Sir I'm not surprised you had to do some work on that lock, but it's a about as good a lock as I know at the present time for that gun. Look at the the closeups shown in Hamilton {Frontier Guns} on PP.46,50 and you will see that the major changes are as follows:
clean up the back side of the frizzen from top to bottom,
reshape the body of the cock so that the center of the back side is straight,removing the little curlicue and the dish like appearance of the center of the lock as you got it.If possible the top jaw should be flatter and more round and the same for the bottom jaw.The pan should be a little flatter The lock on P.46 is a good example although the top jaw screw is probably an old replacement.
It sounds as if you didn't use a precarved stock on your fusil. If you're interested in building an early{ Ca.1697-1720} Email me off the board and I can give you some details on one
Tom Patton
clean up the back side of the frizzen from top to bottom,
reshape the body of the cock so that the center of the back side is straight,removing the little curlicue and the dish like appearance of the center of the lock as you got it.If possible the top jaw should be flatter and more round and the same for the bottom jaw.The pan should be a little flatter The lock on P.46 is a good example although the top jaw screw is probably an old replacement.
It sounds as if you didn't use a precarved stock on your fusil. If you're interested in building an early{ Ca.1697-1720} Email me off the board and I can give you some details on one
Tom Patton
Welcome to the camp Okwaho. You have some good info there. Hope to see more posts from you in the future.
Maestro
Moderator
Please pardon my ignorance - what exactly is a "smoothrifle" - my own logic looks at that as an oxymoron!
Is it just a smoothbore gun in a rifle-sized caliber?
Inquiring minds want to know... :hmm:
Is it just a smoothbore gun in a rifle-sized caliber?
Inquiring minds want to know... :hmm:
Smooth rifles are simply that, rifles that were originally smooth bored instead of being rifled and reamed or shot out.They have either all octagon barrels or octagon to round and I know of one all round smooth rifle. They have cheek pieces,rear and front sights,patch boxes,and have rifle architecture.The calibers are comparable with rifles of the same period ie;50's and 60's with an occasionable gun in the 70;s.There are 11 German rifles shown in Shumway,"Rifles of Colonial America",Vol.I and 5 of them are smooth bored. I once checked about 50 rifles in Vol.I excluding one English rifle {rifled} and one French{?} fusil which was smooth bored and the ratio of smooth to rifled was about the same ie; 45% smooth and 55% rifled.These were all early pre Golden age rifles and many of them were of the Reading/Bethlehem/Lehigh Valley schools.I think that later Golden age and beyond rifles were more likely to have rifling and smaller calibers.I have a nice little smooth rifle in about.55 caliber with a 46 1/2 in.swamped full octagon barrel,early{1750's} English fowler butt plate,trigger guard and Ketland lock.It has a rifle side plate,front and rear sights and rifle architecture.I date it from the last quarter of the 18th century although it could be a little earlier.I am new to this forum but I thought I'd answer your question.
Tom Patton
Tom Patton
robinghewitt
62 Cal.
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How about an over-looked finish? I just noticed Long's have an American trade gun in what looks like original paint for 465 sterling.
Maestro
Moderator
Thanks for clearing that up for me, Tom... doesn't matter if your new 'round here - you seem to know what you're talkin' about! I guess "rifle architecture" is the key phrase, huh? I just thought that if it didn't have grooves you wouldn't call it a "rifle"! Thanks much for the answer! I'll have to get RCA 1 out of the library again and look at that... I didn't realize that so many were smooth rifles. I'm very interested in the Northampton/Bethlehem/Lehigh Valley schools - living right here. My gun is an early Dickert (Lancaster) style (a copy of RCA #48) but at least it shows some Lehigh Valley Moravian influence. I was looking for a 1770 era gun and considering a Christian's Spring style but I opted for the one I did being a little less "chunky" overall. My rifle's rifled too! Thanks again!
Glad you made it over here Tom. Your wealth of information and willingness to share will be a welcome addition to this forum, over the last year you have certainly helped me avoid some major curves in the road towards a PC French gun....
Maestro,No. 48 is a very nice gun. Earl Lanning built a copy several years back that fooled a lot of people including me.I think on balance that gun is my favorite Dickert although No.49 is a close second. I've had No.49 in my hands and saw it sell at a private auction several years ago.That's a gun I wouldn't have restored except to put on another forestock and then only if it could have been renoved and the gun look as it did before.The restoration was a beefed up comb,new forestock,new lock,new pipes,new muzzle cap and new trigger.As I said I would never have restored that gun other than as I mentioned.You would not have believed the character that gun had but I don't know what it looks like now.
Tom Patton
Tom Patton
I have ordered a couple of guns from him.One on 6/4/04,not seen yet.One on4/30/04,not seen yet.One awhile back and can't get him to even send me a receipt for the payment.The guns were all promised with a 6 month wait.ALITTLE late...Guality? the only ones I've seen are the ones he seems to be able to supply to TOW..
Hay Okwaho!
Was glad to see comments from you and Tanstlaafl. I fell in love with the Tulle fusil ages ago, but have never built one. Bouchard or somebody said a letter was sent back to France to send more, as the Indians, once they used them, wanted no other. Another interesting thought I read in The Rifle Shops book, was that Kit Ravenshear believed the Fusil de Chase was basically a cheap version of the French Marine Officers Fusil. The stock has the great looking "pied de vache" stock, and it has some raised mouldings around the lock,tang,and trigger guard. The side plate looks like a type "C' gun and all the hardware on the original was iron and showed some engraving. The lock plate is stamped with the Marine anchor.
I would love to build this one, but right now I'd have to sell my bird dog, and possibly my wife to pay for it. Its pricey but most good things are. One thing about the Rifle Shop, all their castings are molded from originals.
While on the subject of French stuff. The Rifle Shop also shows a 1733 Cavalry Carbine. This gun was .66cal. and some had rifled barrels. The first 4" to 6" were left smooth to allow easier loading while mounted. Fancy that!Whenever I ask anyone about French rifles in general, or when barrels were rifled first from anywhere, I usually get the deer in the headlights stare, so I thought that was interesting. I know there wasn't any French cavalry in New France, but I thought it was neet that it was being done that far back.
Keep Your powder dry!
Was glad to see comments from you and Tanstlaafl. I fell in love with the Tulle fusil ages ago, but have never built one. Bouchard or somebody said a letter was sent back to France to send more, as the Indians, once they used them, wanted no other. Another interesting thought I read in The Rifle Shops book, was that Kit Ravenshear believed the Fusil de Chase was basically a cheap version of the French Marine Officers Fusil. The stock has the great looking "pied de vache" stock, and it has some raised mouldings around the lock,tang,and trigger guard. The side plate looks like a type "C' gun and all the hardware on the original was iron and showed some engraving. The lock plate is stamped with the Marine anchor.
I would love to build this one, but right now I'd have to sell my bird dog, and possibly my wife to pay for it. Its pricey but most good things are. One thing about the Rifle Shop, all their castings are molded from originals.
While on the subject of French stuff. The Rifle Shop also shows a 1733 Cavalry Carbine. This gun was .66cal. and some had rifled barrels. The first 4" to 6" were left smooth to allow easier loading while mounted. Fancy that!Whenever I ask anyone about French rifles in general, or when barrels were rifled first from anywhere, I usually get the deer in the headlights stare, so I thought that was interesting. I know there wasn't any French cavalry in New France, but I thought it was neet that it was being done that far back.
Keep Your powder dry!
