• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Over-stitch Wheel or Stitch Chisel?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
This thread came up at just the right time. I also just finished reading the Albert book and want to try making a bag. Likewise, it will be my first attempt at any sort of leatherwork.

So if the regular Craftool awls at Tandy aren't that great, where is a good place to shop for better quality that won't break the bank?

Also what's the difference between a harness needle, glover's needle, and plain needle?
 
Jumpshot said:
So if the regular Craftool awls at Tandy aren't that great, where is a good place to shop for better quality that won't break the bank?

Also what's the difference between a harness needle, glover's needle, and plain needle?

I'd stick with Tandy and get their Pro awl. Absolutely dandy and good as some very expensive ones, yet not much more than the cheaper Craftool version. The same applies for the Pro chisels. They're very high quality and perfect for sewing. The standard Craftool chisels are better for use with lace and such.

As for the differences in needles, harness needles have a little bigger hole for passing thicker threads, but more important they're more or less blunt at the tip. That's important because you want the needles to slide through the holes made by an awl or chisel rather than digging into the leather.

Plain sewing needles are too sharp, their holes are too small, and they tend to be brittle. I've tried to use them in a pinch and been very unhappy with the results.

Glovers needles are three-sided at the point and very sharp, intended for poking through thin leather without resorting to an awl or chisel. But lots thinner leather than used for bags. Problem is, the edges of those three sides are sharp and they'll cut the thread previously passed through the hole on a saddle stitch. In my experience the sharp point also wants to dive through the thread inside the hole, which really cobbles things up.
 
Sounds good, thanks. Looks like it will take a while to acquire the necessary tools.

Ugh. Another hobby to spend money on. :surrender:
 
After all that, you can still hand-sew with an awl, harness needles and thread. Total investment of ~$10 - less if you make the awl.
 
Wow! I am overwhelmed with the responses from all you fine people! I am still contemplating this project, and it seems that every little detail really matters. Needles and thread, it seemed to me initially, would be easy to buy. I now appreciate that I'm oversimplifying even those details...

My plan is to make most of the bag with 3-4oz vegetable tanned leather, and only use a piece of my Axis hide for the flap/lid of the bag.

From the collective opinions above, it sounds like for that material, the wheel and awl will probably be my best bet. I'll stay away from the chisels for this project I think.

I'm on a bit of a budget and will start to accumulate supplies and tools a little at a time. I'm not planning on entering my bag in any sort of authenticity competition, but I'm hoping to stay fairly true to the design of the day. The fact that I'm incorporating Axis hide, a non-native species to the U.S., pretty much kills the idea of truly authentic anyway!

Is Tandyleather a good source for leather? My book suggests buying a half-hide if you want the shoulder strap to be one piece, which sounds right to me (but pricey).
 
TXFlynHog said:
My book suggests buying a half-hide if you want the shoulder strap to be one piece, which sounds right to me (but pricey).

I suggest a 2-piece strap with a buckle. Allows for length adjustments as needed to accommodate seasonal clothing .
 
Jumpshot said:
Ugh. Another hobby to spend money on. :surrender:

Oh yeah. But there are work-arounds if you're patient and willing to put in a little extra work.

At one of the many points in my life when I was real broke and in need of leather tools and leather, I got a pack of large-eyed blunt needles, fashioned my own awl, used my sharp pocket knife to cut leather which I salvaged from clothing and shoes at the thrift store. It sure worked.

To fashion the awl I carefully hammered the point of an 8-penny nail into a diamond-shape cross section, sharpened and honed the point, then split a piece of broom hand and sandwiched, then glued it into that and shaped a handle. It worked well, but there was zero temper of course, and I had to stop and hone it fairly often.

To get regular stitch spacing I used a ruler and a pencil to lay out the stitches rather than an overstitch wheel. This took a lot of care, time and patience, but it worked. Using that makeshift outfit and the near-free leather, I worked a couple of weeks leading up to a craft fair and ginned up enough small products to make a good display. Earned enough money to get the car running again so I could quit walking to work.

Yeah. Broker than broke. Enuff to make me really appreciate good tools these days!
 
I made a triangular awl from a broken harness needle and an antler tine. Shaped with a file and honed on a diamond stone. Even stitch spacing can be accomplished by eye with very little practice.

I've made dozens of projects from all types of leather and only one had holes that were gang-punched (with a 4-tine punch I made from a piece of metal-cutting bandsaw blade). The others had holes punched with the aforementioned awl and spaced by eye.
 
TXFlynHog said:
From the collective opinions above, it sounds like for that material, the wheel and awl will probably be my best bet. I'll stay away from the chisels for this project I think.

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me you don't mean this over priced and totally useless Tandy Trinket, that so many of us have wasted our money on? https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/sewing-awl-kit

The following link shows what Brown Bear has suggested and I concur with: https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/craftool-pro-stitching-awl

Yes, you will have to buy what is called a "side" or half hide if you want to make the shoulder strap one piece, unless you want to sew shorter pieces together to make the strap. Tandy offers long pre-cut straps, but nothing near as thin a 3-4 oz and what they do offer is way too thick for a shoulder strap.

I very much agree with Black Hand that a two piece strap with buckle is the best way to go.

Gus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BrownBear said:
To fashion the awl I carefully,,
I used a small off brand, cheap, phillips screwdriver,, carefully grinding and dipping in water to not over heat.
I still use it today.

To get regular stitch spacing I used a ruler and a pencil to lay out the stitches rather than an overstitch wheel. This took a lot of care, time and patience, but it worked.
And still does. Got tired of reading the little numbers so I cut a guide/jig from the plastic of a ketchup bottle a 1/4" wide (using a ruler) and notched it for stitch length (using a ruler),, then I changed the width and notch length for different projects (from the same plastic ketchup bottle) and still use them today.
(and sometimes metric works,,guess what? 6spi, ain't on a tape measure no matter how ya look at it)

Yeah. Broker than broke. Enuff to make me really appreciate good tools these days!
Yeah! :v :thumbsup:

Nobody needs a darn wheel to get it looking purty,, it just takes a little time
 
necchi said:
...so I cut a guide/jig from the plastic of a ketchup bottle a 1/4" wide (using a ruler) and notched it for stitch length (using a ruler),, then I changed the width and notch length for different projects (from the same plastic ketchup bottle) and still use them today.... it just takes a little time

There ya go. In truth it's more in keeping with the "spirit" of our forefathers to make as many tools as you can.

Reminds me of watching my grandpap strip and go skinny dipping for hooks rather than break them off. Fed a family on fish and game all through the Depression and barely spent a dime.
 
My apology, I now see you meant the overstitch wheel and awl. Glad to realize that.

I agree there are other ways to space your stitching and there have some very good suggestions made on that.

Gus
 
I have not read all the responses but I will give it a go. Sorry if some has already been mentioned and I am sure much has already by looking at the names of various posters.  There are many ways to skin the cat and here is mine. 

 If you are trying to make something look home made as by an untrained person, don't use anything to lay out. Also look to basic cloth stitching technique as would have been known by the women in most households instead of leather technique which was a specialized trade.
Here are my recommendations if attempting period leather work...Those chisels of which you speak are not recommended if they are diamond chisels. I also don't recommend an overstitch wheel. I recommend a pricking iron. They do not puncture the leather but lay out holes in a slanted angular pattern. IIRC even Tandy makes a rather cheap version of this.  I generally use one inch irons and when I need to do corners or curves I hold it at an angle so as to use only one or two teeth at a time. They do make smaller ones and I think the Tandy one is not wide. If for bags only that would be perfect and cheap. Prick your work, hold a harness needle in each hand and a very sharp harness or saddler's awl in one hand without laying anything down as you stitch with the work held in a clam, etc.  I made my first awl from a concrete nail and still have it. The awl has to be sharp enough to pierce the leather like butter. Purchased awls must be polished and sharpened. The only awl I know of being sold today that is good to go out of the box is a Douglas and they run 40 bucks a pop. As a matter of fact, most all leather tools that pierce, cut, punch, etc. come in need of sharpening. This creates a problem for many today who are used to out of the box use. They come that way for two reasons... 1. Allows sharpening and shaping to preference and 2. cuts down on labor to produce. Pierce leather and make the stitch, pierce leather and make the stitch.There are cases in which pre-piercing multiple holes or piercing into a board is best but the traditional mainstay is as described.
The argument for neat stitches looking non-period is quite untrue. An examination of any period piece of leatherwork done by a trained leather worker from the period  (less any quick made military items) will show well done work where it is seen.

Sounds easy but consistent stitches is learned thru repetition of technique.
 
BTW, there is a difference between an overstitch wheel and a pricking wheel, though some in the UK seem to use the terms interchangeably and that can cause a lot of confusion.

An overstitch wheel has somewhat sharp points all around the diameter. A few people I ran into back in the 70's informed me the overstitch wheel was not only to impress the points into the leather for spacing, but also to run over the stitches to "clean them up or make them more uniform" after the stitches were done. I am pretty sure the latter was not true as the points could damage the thread of the stitches and good stitching does not need a wheel to make them look better.

The true Pricking Wheel has angled chisels all around the diameter of the wheel, like the chisels on the Pricking Iron. Since most of them have a feature to change wheels for different stitches per inch, it may seem like a very handy tool to have. However, the cost of such tools from Dixon, Blanchard, etc. are very high and well beyond the reach of most folks who are not full time leather workers. Further, the Pricking Wheels are made to be used on curved pieces of leather where even the two chisel Pricking Iron would take too long to use. Saddlers and some others who often work with large curved pieces of leather will find good use for Pricking Wheels, but for most of the rest of us, the use of the tool does not justify the cost.

However, the U.S. Cavalry issued Pricking Wheels in their Saddler's Repair Kits that were used into the early 20th century, as long as they still primarily used horses. I mention this because I found a U.S. marked Pricking Wheel at an old tool shop years ago and at the time, did not truly understand what it was. I thought it was a overstitch wheel and bought it mainly for the U.S. marking, but also because it was in a different spacing than wheels I had and because it was relatively cheap. However, much to my surprise and delight, the rear end of the wood grip unscrewed and there were more wheels of different spacing in there, that were tied together with a very old piece of string. While I was examining the wheels, I noticed they had chisel points instead of regular points and have to confess at the time I did not realize what I had. It actually took me a number of years before I ran across someone who knew what it was, back in the days before the Internet.

While a Pricking Wheel won't cut as deeply into the leather as a Pricking Iron and is harder to use than a Pricking Iron on straight rows of stitching, it is very handy on curved lines of stitching.

So anyone interested in leather work may keep an eye out at antique shops and flea markets for old tools and especially one of the U.S. marked Pricking Wheels that were often used little or not at all.

Gus
 
Folks, I want to publicly acknowledge and thank Capt.Jas. for assistance he provided me and others on this forum. His work is really incredible and anyone interested in period leatherwork would do well to use his work to inspire our own. James also informed me of and assisted me in getting leatherworking videos made by Eric Myall, who was a UK trained leather worker and the Master of the Saddlery Shop at Colonial Williamsburg for many years. There is some great information on some of the different ways they worked leather in the 18th century. Thank you James, I truly appreciate the help and tips you have offered.

I made my first two awls from drill rod because they could be hardened and tempered at known heat ranges. One I made was too large, except to use for lacing. The good thing for me was I worked at a shop where it was easy to get scrap pieces of drill rod to make the awls. I mention this as source for good metal for awls because some folks may use drill rod or have some friends who work in such machine shops or do this kind of work at home. Retired machinists and many home shop enthusiasts can be wonderful sources for materials, information, help and work.

Something else for new leather workers and even more advanced ones. I have run into a lot of old leather working tools at antique shops, flea markets and even Flea Bay. Some times the prices are too high or the tools not in good shape to use, but I have found a lot of really good tools at modest to downright cheap prices at such places. So those are other sources to look for leather working tools. Occasionally you will find tools from a real craftsman who took really good care of their tools and those are a joy to use.

Gus
 
I purchased one of Tandy's strap cutters. Works slick and very easy to use.

Fleener
 
"An overstitch wheel has somewhat sharp points all around the diameter. A few people I ran into back in the 70's informed me the overstitch wheel was not only to impress the points into the leather for spacing, but also to run over the stitches to "clean them up or make them more uniform" after the stitches were done. I am pretty sure the latter was not true as the points could damage the thread of the stitches and good stitching does not need a wheel to make them look better." Articifer

Gus. I have used the over stitch wheels and that is exactly what they were made for. In the 60's if you bought Tandy's stitching kit you got a couple of thin marking wheels mounted on handles. I think one is a 7 spi, and one other is less spi, and as advised by the in house "leather expert" I purchased one size of the over stitch wheels. I still have my three wheels. As I said, I used the over stitch wheel years ago. I later decided it was just not worth the extra time and effort, however, I found no damage to the thread at all. The points are V shaped, and the thread forms a V in the hole. The over stitcher does even things up a little, but just not enough to impress me. Now days, that is the only wheel type tool Tandy sells. I like the old ones with the thin wheels much better. They let you see more of what you're doing. OSBORN LEATHER TOOLS is still in business, but their thin bladed marker wheels are $34.40 each. With the handles of course.
 
fleener said:
I purchased one of Tandy's strap cutters. Works slick and very easy to use.

Fleener

Please understand I mean no criticism when I say I am glad it works for you, but I had a couple bad run ins with mine long ago and stopped using it.

Then I tried the more expensive pistol grip strap cutters and even though I've seen people use these extremely well, they did not work for me - no matter how well I followed tips and directions and other people showing me how to use them. I finally decided they were bad medicine for me.

I can't begin to count all the straps I've cut using one of the 48" long aluminum rulers that are for sale in many places including but not limited to hardware stores and Office Depot - usually in the drafting section. I get a perfect strap every time by running a sharp knife along the edge.

So that's another way to cut straps.

Gus
 
Wick,

Thanks for the info. I tried running the overstitch wheel over some of my stitching and it really didn't do anything. I had already independently learned the trick of always putting the needle either below or above the thread on one side of the leather or other, so I didn't see any benefit for using the overstitch tool that way. Still use mine to space/mark lines for the awl holes, though.

Gus
 
One thing especially for people new to leather working that may be interesting; is that while there is documentation that many frontiersmen carried an awl, most of their shot pouches were only as well sewn as the person who made it for himself.

Now if the frontiersman could afford and wanted a shot pouch made by a Saddler, Cordwainer, or even a Cobbler; it was most likely sewn very nicely with even stitches and a nice overall appearance.

If the frontiersman had been trained in leather work or had someone he could get information from to sew up his own pouch, it may have come out somewhat close to a professional leather worker.

However, Madison Grant's Book "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" also shows a fair number of pouches that are downright crude and some with really bad looking stitches, but still served their owners well.

So even if your first pouch does not come out as well as you might like, it could still be completely authentic and serviceable - unless you make it out of split cowhide like I made my first one. It looked good, but folded in on itself when I tried to use it, so I soon made a second one out of stiffer leather. That first pouch wound up being hung from the Ozan rope in our Lodge (Tipi) to store some items, so I got some use out of it. :redface: :haha:

Gus
 
Back
Top