Over-stitch Wheel or Stitch Chisel?

[BrownBear]

I use the round-nose pliers because the jaws are smooth and won't scratch or score the needle (which could result in the needle breaking).

How about taking an old pair of regular pliers and gluing two pieces of leather to the insides of the jaws, just for this purpose? Or would the leather not offer enough grip on the needles to pull them through?

Just kicking some ideas around...

I just use the cheap Harbor Freight version of these.

 

[Black Hand]

Those are the ones. The pair I have was purchased at Sears about 20 years ago...

 

[Bo T]

One old timer suggested fabricating a thimble out of raw hide. A person could get a custom fit that way.

 

[Artificer]

On the matter of protecting the hands when sewing, our Dearly Departed Forum Member LaBonte aka Chuck Burrows suggested taking a pair of leather gloves and cutting off the thumbs and all the fingers EXCEPT the little fingers, as those are the ones that bear the brunt of the sawing action of the thread against your hand. He only illustrates one of a pair of gloves to give you an idea at the bottom right of the top picture in this link:
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_leatherstitch.html

Now the great thing for me is that I have an old pair of buckskin work gloves and guess what? While I have worn through the thumbs and most of the fingers, the pinky fingers are intact. Hooray! I knew I had not thrown them away for some reason.

The following link is not related, but I found it looking for something else and thought others here might enjoy it. It is a collection of 19th century saddlers/leather working tools. http://cdn.caseantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/auctions/oct_16th_auction/691_1.jpg

Gus

 

[Artificer]

On the subject of pliers for leather needles. When I began working leather in the 1970’s, I had a lot of desire, but money was extremely short. So I used common needle nose pliers and grabbed the needles with the smooth sections near the joint, so as not to damage the needles. I then used the pliers with the round jaws that others have mentioned and illustrated previously in this thread.

The problem with either of these types of pliers is you still have to grab the needle from the side and if you slip or make a wrong move when pulling a really stubborn needle out, you can wind up sticking yourself in your hands, arms or even a leg. Yes, I admit I actually stuck myself in the leg one time when pulling a needle and the wife surprised me when she mentioned something. I lost concentration at the wrong moment and the needle came free and right through my jeans and into my leg. Probably the reason why many leather workers wear/wore LONG leather aprons while they work/worked?

Thus began my quest to find a better set of pliers for this use”¦”¦”¦..

OK, I looked through my kit and picked up a pair of parallel jaw pliers aka “Lineman’s Pliers,” like the ones were issued to hold onto screw bodies and other parts. The parallel jaws would hold the needles with the pointy end going into the jaws and thus be a lot safer to pull on stubborn needles. Mine even had a V groove in each jaw the needle would fit into, so the teeth would damage the needle, though I could have glued brass strips or wrapped sheet brass around the front of the jaws. So I used those for many years before I found a very small set of parallel jaw pliers in the Fishing Section of Walmart and they were very inexpensive and the small size was just perfect for using them on the needles. Since the pliers were cheap, the V notch in each jaw was not as refined, so I glued brass shim to each jaw.

Only later did I learn that parallel jaw pliers are also used in the jewelry and some other trades and the jaws come smooth. Though the picture in the following link shows teeth, these pliers don’t have teeth to begin with. These can be handy to hold not only needles, but gun screws, pin stock and other things. They may also save you from sticking yourself.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, forgot the link. This set made for jewelry is smaller than regular pliers and just the ticket for pulling needles: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/201131694785-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

Gus

 

[crockett]

Well, I'm glad others use pliers. I always felt guilty about using pliers to pull thread through the holes. I usually only use the pliers on the back stitches because there are threads already in the hole and things are tight. On the back stitch without tying knots, that's with waxed linen thread on rather stiff leather, like a knife sheath. I've never had the tread work loose and I believe it is the standard way to do it.
Sinew- that's a entirely different thing. I use short, 12" lengths. I only use real sinew, the fake stuff is FAKE and actually MORE trouble than using the real thing. On sinew I use a wrap around stitch. Sinew will be hard, like rawhide. Soak it BUT leave one end dry- that dry end is stiff enough to feed through the hole. I take the tag end and lock it in place by wrapping at least 3 wraps around it. The wraps going over the tag end. When I run out of one length I just repeat, locking the ends under wraps.

 

[Artificer]

Well, I'm glad others use pliers. I always felt guilty about using pliers to pull thread through the holes. I usually only use the pliers on the back stitches because there are threads already in the hole and things are tight.

I also mainly use the pliers on back stitches with heavier leather, but sometimes have to resort to pliers when using a thick welt sandwiched between two pieces of thick leather.

I only made the mistake once of trying to open up the back stitch holes a tiny bit with my sewing awl. Even being as careful as I could, I cut the thread. I like LaBonte’s/Chuck Burrows' suggestion of using the next size larger needle, glued into a handle, as a “fid” to open up the holes on back stitching in heavy leather. Got to try that the next time I sew leather.

On the back stitch without tying knots, that's with waxed linen thread on rather stiff leather, like a knife sheath. I've never had the tread work loose and I believe it is the standard way to do it.

Yep, it is the standard way to do it and it will almost always work with stiff/thicker leather.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

I like LaBonte’s/Chuck Burrows' suggestion of using the next size larger needle, glued into a handle, as a “fid” to open up the holes on back stitching in heavy leather.

From personal experience, there is no need to use a larger needle. I have a piece of broken harness needle in a handle that is used when needed. You don't need to open a larger hole, merely one large enough for your current needle to pass through - easily accomplished with the same size (and the blunt tip doesn't cut the thread)...

 

[Artificer]

Good point. I could see how that would work.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

I have several of these little gems, one of which lives it's life with a 2" straight stabbing point. Basically just a needle with a continuous smooth taper. Dandy "fid" as it's called in the marine world. I greatly prefer that stabbing point to a needle for the same job due to the continuous taper. I can use it for small to large jobs, depending on how deep I poke it through the leather.


Those are dandy handles too, for their two flat sides which help you orient blades for general piercing jobs with the diamond blades. Used them for the last 20+ years until Tandy came along with their Pro models with even better blades.

 

[Artificer]

Your latest post reminded me of still another big error I made, but hopefully I can save others from doing. (I would like to remind everyone that when I began leather work in the early 70’s; I had no training, no mentor, and there was nothing yet like Al Stohlman’s superb book on Hand Sewing Leather. I sought out help and information, but there just wasn’t that much info freely available back then. I tried to get catalogs from Osborne and one or two other Tool Makers, but could not find them in the Pre-Internet world.)

In the early 80’s, twice I was able to buy a lot of leather working awls that I thought were meant to go into adjustable handles, even though those awls were pretty old. This was excellent for me because there were at least a couple of curved awls in each lot and I needed them for making a butt seamed leather scabbard for a sword. However, the first lot came with what I thought was the correct adjustable handle for those awls. Of course I can’t find a link now that shows one, but the following link shows something very similar. You can get an idea of just how large in dimeter these handles are by noting the size of a needle in the adjustable head. The diameter is larger than the handles on most leaf rakes, but not quite as big as on a garden hoe. Many of these have a leather “donut” on the rear of the handle, as I believe the one in the link has. Now I have really large hands, but these things are more than a handful for me. Still I could use them to hold the awls and use them. When I first became a member here, LaBonte/Chuck Burrows informed me these handles were for something else and not for use to hold awls, though I don’t remember exactly what he said they were for, since I was never going to use them for their intended purpose.
http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/989/956989/956989_151025132502_DSCF6117.JPG

I don’t remember if Tandy had adjustable awl handles in the early 80’s like the one you linked in your post above, but if they did, I never found out about them then. After LaBonte corrected me, my eyes were bad for a while waiting for the VA to operate on them, but I have purchased one of these adjustable awls you showed in your link and it looks like it will be much more comfortable to use than the “old piece of axe handle” holder I was using.

OK, in a way I guess this is also leading me to ask about the Pro Model Adjustable Awl Haft, since you have actually used one. I learned long ago that money on the best tools is usually well spent, but I do have to wonder if these are worth the additional cost? Could you please explain why you now prefer the Pro Model? Oh, is the adjustable head better than on the economy model?

Gus

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Now, dose any one use a thimble? I make a fake one since I have not found one to fit, when cloth sewing.

I've used white athletic tape when sewing heavy leather (keeps the tread from cutting my little fingers as I snug the stitches). When sewing cloth, I've not really needed a thimble as the pliers do the job.

A kilt maker's thimble might be useful. Cut a piece of light leather into a tee shape the cross part of the tee needs to be long enough you can wrap it around your index finger and then stitch it together. The long leg of the tee needs to be about twice the length of the tip joint of your index finger. Make a piece of light metal and glue it into the part of the long leg that will lay directly under your finger tip. Then, fold the remaing leather back over the metal and glue it down. You have a ring of leather to slip over you finger to hold your thimble in place, and a layer of metal sandwiched between layers of leather. The metal can be shaped a little to fit your finger.

 

[BrownBear]

OK, in a way I guess this is also leading me to ask about the Pro Model Adjustable Awl Haft, since you have actually used one. I learned long ago that money on the best tools is usually well spent, but I do have to wonder if these are worth the additional cost? Could you please explain why you now prefer the Pro Model? Oh, is the adjustable head better than on the economy model?

The big deal is the quality of the Pro blades. And Tandy was pretty smart in making them not fit the socket in old small handles, even if the grips are roughly the same size. I have complete setups in both Alaska and our winter home elsewhere, and I like the Pro awls (and the Pro chisels) so much that I invested in sets for both places.

 

[Artificer]

OK, in a way I guess this is also leading me to ask about the Pro Model Adjustable Awl Haft, since you have actually used one. I learned long ago that money on the best tools is usually well spent, but I do have to wonder if these are worth the additional cost? Could you please explain why you now prefer the Pro Model? Oh, is the adjustable head better than on the economy model?

The big deal is the quality of the Pro blades. And Tandy was pretty smart in making them not fit the socket in old small handles, even if the grips are roughly the same size.

Uh, oh...... Well, I am VERY glad I asked that question. I did not realize the awl shanks differed so much in shape between the Tandy Standard and Pro Awls, until I just now looked them up in their online catalog. Many of my older awls have a tapered shank, so I am going to have to break them out and see if they will fit in the Standard Adjustable handle. They might not. If they won't, I might just have to file/sand down one or two of my "axe handle" adjustable handles and put at least one flat side on them OR take one or two of those awls into Tandy to see if my awls will fit the Pro Awl Handle.

This is really good information as I had to lay off most leather work for the last four years or so, while I waited to get my eyes fixed.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

The thing I especially like about the Pro stuff is the quality of the steel and the finish they put on them, whether awl points or chisels. Haven't tried their Pro tooling stamps, but a bud reports the same with them, too.

Right out of the pack the diamond awl points are about 98% sharp and smooth, and about 2 minutes with rouge finishes the job. Same for the curved. The old standards usually take half an hour or more to reshape, sharpen and polish.

Better yet, they appear to be a different steel. The standards are rust buckets in our wet climate, both here in AK and in our winter home in a warmer place. Let them sit a little while and they're turning pink and you have to start the polish job all over again. Let it go very long and you'll be sharpening, too. I doubt the Pro's are stainless steel even if they're brighter. But they sure don't pick up rust in humid storage. Great fit for my needs all around.

I'm doing a complicated bit of experimental construction (non-muzzleloading) with 8 90-degree joints on compound curves, and I couldn't be happier. If that works, it will get worse with a version having 12 60-degree joints and another with 16 45-degree joints. Just can't do that kind of stuff without good tools.... And a whole lot of patience! :rotf:

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Thanks for these tips! The brad idea is excellent!!