Overshot cards useless? Overpowder wads useless?

[MikeEasy]

Two schools of thought?:

- use only overshot cards (V.M. Starr at http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html )

- "I consider nothing to be more worthless than modern over-shot cards."(use felt or wool over-powder wad or a fiber cushion fiber wad) - from Randy D. Smith's article "Muzzleloader Shotguns" at the c*h*u*c*k h*a*w*k*s site, which name apparently cannot be entered here without being automatically replaced by this posting software).

Opinions?

 

[tg]

I use an op card maybe two then shot then an os card and it works well for me I also use wadding in plave of both, you will have to try all the possibilites and see what works best for you, I did not read the article but whenever the words never or always come up it sends red flags up for me.Good luck, part of the fun is figuring out what works best for your particukar gun.

 

[Snow on the Roof]

In my veeery unscientific study I must admit the idea of carrying only 1 wad to be ideal for my smoothbore shooting. If you have a good supply of thin over shot wads, use them, no shame nor ill effects to patterns in their use. Its the big half inch fiber wads I find to be near usless. I have found they are most useful with a round ball in front of them but will put holes into the shot patterns.

Snow

 

[George]

I like a bit more beef to my overpowder wads, so I frequently use 2 Circle Fly OP cards of 1/8". Starr's recommended wads come to just about .2" total thickness, mine comes out to .25", close enough.

I also use Circle Fly OS cards, one over the shot. They are 1/32", so it would take 6 of them to equal Starr's recommendation for OP wads. Too much hassle, for me.

I like to load some lube with my shot loads if I'm doing a lot of shooting, such as on dove hunts, so I frequently use a 1 card wad of 1/8" and a 1/2" lubed cushion wad in that situation, and they have worked well for me. Keeps me shooting longer, and the doves don't seem to mind.

Spence

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I think we are on the same page Spence, I also like Circle Fly OP cards and sometimes will split them to half thickness to use as over shot cards. I don't find the fiber wads to benefit patterns nor to harm them but they can carry lube to keep the fouling soft. If one finds the 1/2" fiber wad ruins patterns they may do OK by cutting them in half.

 

[Rifleman1776]

In my veeery unscientific study I must admit the idea of carrying only 1 wad to be ideal for my smoothbore shooting. If you have a good supply of thin over shot wads, use them, no shame nor ill effects to patterns in their use. Its the big half inch fiber wads I find to be near usless. I have found they are most useful with a round ball in front of them but will put holes into the shot patterns.

Snow

I kinda hafta agree with you. The KISS principal seems to be ignored by a lot of smoothie shooters. But, the lubed fiber wad does fill an important role IMHO. It does, or is supposed to, act as a 'cushion'. And, it does push crud from previous round down to bottom to be shot out.

 

[Dave K]

Everyone have a responsibility to test ideas on what works for you. Some methods of loading will work for you and some may work for others but not for you. For me, all my particular SxS's and one fowler this is what works for me. I use an over powder card, a 1/2" thick fiber cushion cut in at least to 1/4" or even less thickness and these are lubed with olive oil. On top of the shot, goes the thin shot card. This works well for me when multiple shots such as shooting clay or doves are targeted. For turkey hunting and a little tighter pattern is wanted, I do not use the lubed fiber cushion as only one shot is going to be needed and the hard fowling will not be an issue. For me, the 1/2" thick cushion will leave a hole in my pattern. But, if it works for you, great! Spending time at the range testing your equipment is never time wasted and you may find something new to share with us.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I one doesn't use an overshot card . . . what keeps the shot from rolling out the barrel? You have to put something over the shot, and nothing is less massive or potentially disruptive to a pattern than a 1/32" card.

 

[Dave K]

You are right. Without an over shot card, you are a dove or squirrel hunter, if you can keep your barrel up! If you are a rabbit hunter, you will be only tired and hungry at the end of the day. :grin:

 

[roundball]

Over the years I've seen the comments that "smoothbores are unique"..."individuals"..."can be finicky", etc.
And I have to agree that after using .54 and .62al smoothbores in 32" lengths, .54cal in 42", and .62cal in 38"...they had some similarities but a couple of them had some unique characteristics as well.

For example, I learned with the 32" barreled .54 & .62 that lesser amounts of any cushion wad gave tighter patterns with the same load...ie: two 1/8" Oxyoke wool wads gave tighter patterns than when I'd try full 1/2" cushion wads.
BUT...lo and behold...when I moved to a 42" x.54cal smoothbore barrel the reverse turned out to be the case...it absolutely loved a full 1/2" cushion wad...patterned noticeably tighter than using the pair of 1/8" wool wads.

In playing around with the smoothbores I mentioned, my findings are that while 1/2" cushion wads may not do as well in a given gauge, barrel length, and powder/shot load...change any one of those elements and 1/2" cushion wads may well suddenly become the preferred choice...we can't just conclude that full cushion wads have no use...in fact they're used all over the world.

IMO there's no silver bullet answer to an optimum smoothbore load that everyone can simply adopt.
The tests have to be run in the smoothbore we're using at the time, with the load we're using at the time.
Just have to test and find a combination that serves our purposes in that smoothbore and go...and until we do, we can't take anything off the table like 1/2 cushion wads...just might just be the answer for a given situation

 

[Dave K]

Like you, I have found that all my smooth bores(which are all shotguns/fowlers) all load really the very same, except for the amounts of shot and powder.One thing to remember, my guns are not choked at all, but are all cylinder bored. No, this is not a sweeping across the board way, but this is what works for me. Which I have said often, and this is what works for me. Powder, over powder card, thin 1/4" or less cushion lubed in olive oil and drained, shot and thin over shot card. I myself have not at any consistent good success with any type of paper made shot wad. But, if you testing shows it works for you, by gosh use it! You said with your jug choked gun, that it actually likes a full 1/2" cushion. I have thought about this many times and of course there really is no answer, except what the patterning board shows you. Only my opinion, I feel that the choke, either a restrictive choke or even a jug choke, just may, slow down the cushion just enough to keep it from holing the pattern. It always appears that the quicker the cards and cushions leave the shot column, it seems the better the pattern. I have thought of this many times even with breech loaders, as certainly the restriction choke has got to have an affect on the shot cup.

I am sure if every shot shooter would use all the things posted here on what loads work for the people that have posted them. They would find the perfect load that works for them too. It is no secret, you have to go to the range and try it.

 

[roundball]

You said with your jug choked gun, that it actually likes a full 1/2" cushion.

The 42" x .54cal I referenced is not choked at all...factory cylinder bore...but surprisingly throws a tighter pattern with a full Circle Fly 1/2" prelubed fiber cushion wad, than it does with only half the amount, using two Oxyoke 1/8" wool wads.

As a side note, in a 32" GM .62cal barrel Jug Choked Full by Lowell Tenneyson several years ago, it got a tighter pattern with the 1/2" cushion wad.
But my current 38" Rice .62cal, also Jug Choked Full, does not...it does best with half that, two Oxyoke 1/8" wool wads.

The good news is that testing at the range identifies the differences, and we can select one combo for the tightest pattern to use for small turkey head targets, and switch to a different combo for wing shooting overhead crows coming to decoys or something.

you have to go to the range and try it.

Bingo...if there's a common theme from smoothbore load development / testing with different smoothbores...that's it.
Its fine to read posts here for some loads that have worked for others as starting points...try them and see...but they may well still require tinkering in a different smoothbore, different loading practices, different brand powder, etc.

IMO, it's why the modern era formulas that a couple people constantly put forward as if they're an across the board silver bullet are hogwash...and they obviously suffer from a lack of any hands on experience or they wouldn't say those things...you know, the same people who constantly talk about their hunting prowess but never seem to have a photo of any of the long list of game they've taken...LOL

 

[George]

...it does best with half that, two Oxyoke 1/8" wool wads.

The wool felt wads seem to be pretty popular. I've never tired them because it has always seemed to me my best performance comes with a rigid firewall such as a hard card. What's supposed to be the advantage of the felt wads?

Spence

 

[roundball]

...it does best with half that, two Oxyoke 1/8" wool wads.

The wool felt wads seem to be pretty popular. I've never tired them because it has always seemed to me my best performance comes with a rigid firewall such as a hard card.
What's supposed to be the advantage of the felt wads?
Spence

They were on hand...LOL
I've never tried the hard card you referred to...I always had Oxyoke prelubed wool wads on hand in various calibers because I used one of them as an OP wad/ Firewall with PRB loads.

When I started playing with shot loads I ordered some 1/2" cushion wads from Circle Fly, and between those and the on-hand Oxyoke wads I already had I started testing.
In many cases two of the Oxyoke 1/8" wads did better than the 1/2" Cushion Wad, so I stayed with them.

Don't have any idea if they're as good as, or any better than, your 1/8" hard cards...if you want, PM your snail mail address and I can send you some to experiment with...

 

[George]

Thanks for the offer, maybe later. My plate is pretty full right now. And, I have no doubt about your results.

Like you, I have a supply of wads available, but mine are Circle Fly cards. They come in big boxes. :grin:

Spence

 

[ohio ramrod]

I find I get the best patterns using two leather or 1/4 felt wads over the powder, and a newspaper shot cartridge made with three thicknesses tied with kite string and N0 over shot card. :idunno:

 

[drstrangelove]

OhioRamrod, that sure sounds like a quick reload! How are you wrapping/forming these? I'd like to try it.

 

[hanshi]

Over the years I've seen the comments that "smoothbores are unique"..."individuals"..."can be finicky", etc.

I've also heard such comments over the years but it wasn't until after I got my flint smoothbore that I truly understood this was, indeed, the case.

Imagine my puzzlement at having good patterns change to donuts simply by going up or down a shot size, all else being the same. Some did well with 1/2" cushion wads and others did well only with thin felt wads. The one "rule" I've discovered is that one DOES have to try loads at the patterning board. Simply using someone's proven load in one's gun doesn't guarantee success. :thumbsup:

 

[hanshi]

The above turned out looking funny :idunno: .

 

[roundball]

The above turned out looking funny :idunno: .

You allowed the closing quote to be down under your text...so it thought you text was part of my text and boxed everything together.