Pan flash - from INSIDE the barrel

[deerstalkert]

I was just curious if you could get full ignition or not. I'm sure you can, just not sure how reliably or consistently.
This is one of the few cases where I think I would try some blanks 1st. Just stuff some wadding over the powder. Why have to pull a ball if it won't go bang?

just load the thing and shoot it! if it doesn't fire the ball we get another stuck ball thread! over due in my thinking!
neat vid! love that kind of thing.

 

[BadDaditood]

I agree, that’s a great vid thanks… now get a ball stuck and take pics of all the other stuff that gets stuck trying to “unstuck” the ball !!!

 

[Compressorguy]

Cool video, FYI, if you click the settings button just to the left of “YouTube” you can change the playback speed. It will only allow down to 25x (1/4 original) even if you choose custom. Still very cool none the less and would be neat to slow it down even further to see the flame propagate from the vent hole.

 

[Nazgul58]

I done a stop action. Looks like it should set off the main charge with no problem...

View attachment 90464

If this doesn't ignite your powder I don't know what would!!

Don

 

[Colonial Boy]

Norman Brooks,
You should enter that in an arts exhibition, prize winner!!

 

[Norman Brooks]

Norman Brooks,
You should enter that in an arts exhibition, prize winner!!

Not mine to enter I just did a stop action on the original poster glw's video. That way we can see how much fire will go into the touch hole.

 

[ML48]

just load the thing and shoot it! if it doesn't fire the ball we get another stuck ball thread! over due in my thinking!
neat vid! love that kind of thing.

And by God, you know we'll go off track....

 

[Eterry]

Very good video, I'm guessing whatever kind of flint you are using is doing fine.

What brand and grade of powder did you use? Was the powder close to the touch hole or banked away from it?

THAT should start a lively conversation.

 

[Osseon]

The Bevel Brothers did an article for Muzzle Blasts several years ago on this subject. They wanted to see if the placement of powder in the pan made a difference in the amount of fire inside the barrel. They filmed the flashes with a high-speed camera and also timed the events. They found that the least amount of fire inside the barrel occurred with the powder banked away from the touch hole and the most fire inside the barrel occurred with the powder banked against the touch hole. The visual difference was dramatic. The difference in time was insignificant to a shooter, being just a few milli-seconds. Which method do you think would give more positive and consistent ignition?

Based on that knowledge, should you always tilt your rifle 90 degrees to the right before you start aiming to dump the powder towards the outer edge?

 

[Grenadier1758]

No, @Osseon, just the opposite unless you are left handed. Far better to have the powder spread across the bottom of the pan to catch the sparks wherever they may fall. In fact the Bevel brothers test showed time differences so small that while the time difference can be measured, the effect was really insignificant. When hunting, that kind of sudden movement to tilt the rifle is enough to alert game and spoil the hunt.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

The article mentioned here is found two places. It first appeared in MuzzleBlasts March 2009. I wrote the article, not the Bevel Brothers. I later published the article on my web site: www.blackpowdermag.com. On the web site the article is divided into 6 parts. Part 3 is the one that contains the photos done through the muzzle: Part 3 — Photography through the Muzzle
Later parts give the actual timing of the vent location and priming powder placement.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[sheriff john]

Very impressive to an old guy that started his photography with a Speed Graphic and cut sheet film. Thanks for doing this.

 

[DuncNZ]

When I started shooting flintlocks I was told to tilt the pan to the right to move the prime away from the flash hole so it wouldn't act as a fuse . So I have always done so , that is until I looked at this ; Bill Knight | BlackPowderMag.com you have to go back again and again to get all the pages .
Now I prick the flash hole further in than I used to then I prime 3 grains ffff from a little horn with a valve that drops that amount , my ignition speeds have gone up so much I actually jumped when I fired the first shot , there is no hesitation that either I or the other shooters with me can detect , it is like that saying " fast as a cap rifle" .
There are many here who use their main horn to prime their flintlocks , nothing wrong with that if that is what you want .
I hunt in New Zealand's hard dense southern mountain rain forest which is full of large ferns , fallen trees , creeks and gullies and other tangle foot , which needs to be navigated very carefully , so for safety's sake I am regularly opening my frizzen and dumping the prime powder . I have taught myself to re prime with my little horn without looking at the pan . I could not do that from a large horn .

 

[Eric Krewson]

That "fuse effect" old wives tale is alive and well and will probably never die. All you have to mention is how much prime to put in a pan and someone will admonish you be sure to bank the prime away from the touchhole to avoid the fuse effect.

I use white lightning liners, my main charge and prime are touching each other, a fuse effect isn't possible.

 

[DuncNZ]

That "fuse effect" old wives tale is alive and well and will probably never die. All you have to mention is how much prime to put in a pan and someone will admonish you be sure to bank the prime away from the touchhole to avoid the fuse effect.

I use white lightning liners, my main charge and prime are touching each other, a fuse effect isn't possible.

Exactly and Me too

 

[Rudyard]

In the early days when the idea of Nocks patent was'nt widely excepted some guns had a' Chamber Plug' a small bored chamber that fired into the main charge like a minny canon .As apposed to the common flat face breach plug . but it tended to give a slower ignition by its relitivly Fuse like construction .I had such a flint gun .So I would effectivley prime the chamber with fine powder then put in the main charge of a courser powder ..It seemed a good plan . But one day in a stream bed on a Derbyshire farm decoying Wood Pigeons I omitted the main charge ( Good reason for the' KISS 'principal) and the shot just lobbed liesurley out of the barrel . Most shotguns I made had the Nocks patent . & they seemed to answer very well Rudyard

When I started shooting flintlocks I was told to tilt the pan to the right to move the prime away from the flash hole so it wouldn't act as a fuse . So I have always done so , that is until I looked at this ; Bill Knight | BlackPowderMag.com you have to go back again and again to get all the pages .
Now I prick the flash hole further in than I used to then I prime 3 grains ffff from a little horn with a valve that drops that amount , my ignition speeds have gone up so much I actually jumped when I fired the first shot , there is no hesitation that either I or the other shooters with me can detect , it is like that saying " fast as a cap rifle" .
There are many here who use their main horn to prime their flintlocks , nothing wrong with that if that is what you want .
I hunt in New Zealand's hard dense southern mountain rain forest which is full of large ferns , fallen trees , creeks and gullies and other tangle foot , which needs to be navigated very carefully , so for safety's sake I am regularly opening my frizzen and dumping the prime powder . I have taught myself to re prime with my little horn without looking at the pan . I could not do that from a large horn .

Knowing well the NZ bush I generally carry the ever loaded rifle with a quill in the vent lest rain & damp spoil the prime . Though my hunts used to be no less than a week if latterly two or three days would be it be it . I would' Ticki Tour' I E explore the off track places . allways with a ML, useualy flint never nitro sorts .I cant recall seeing others , there arn't that many so hunt ..I carried a small primer though it was historicaly as often loaded from the flask (You never find 'Best' guns cased with all accessoriss with provision or a primeing flask . Perhaps' Old dog' could clarifie that observation or' Felt Wad') You can tell a tardy shot & even the much poo pooed Matchlock often suprizes on lookers who being told it was impossible to shoot flying by countless armchair experts. Yet I have hunted with Snap & common Matchlocks The argument that the game will sense the smoke is chimerous if it can smell smoke it can smell You anyway .. I did light up my match coal if expecting a shot . I carry the match cord cupped in the hand that held up the rifle but these inadequencies where quite lost on the game .the lead ball did its work whether armchair experts said it could'nt regardless . I know Cutfinger likes his wheellock its French' After' Luois the 13 th 's Boys gun if 54 cal . likley some backward local maker knocked it up . Only one small flat Scots horn I found less to carry did I sometimes prime from. The rest either small horns or a shutter type top . Cutfingers onto it , a very expierienced Gentleman from our correspondence . . Any way must tend dog.
Regards Rudyard
.

 

[Art Caputo]

With my dozen flintlocks accumulated over decades I get my fastest and most reliable ignition with all my rifles using a level pan of powder that is filled 1-2 flash hole diameters below the bottom edge of the flash hole. A 3gr charger generally delivers the right amount and insures consistency. My flash holes are 1/16” or smaller. If required, a tap of the heel of my hand against the lock will level the powder.

 

[DuncNZ]

With my dozen flintlocks accumulated over decades I get my fastest and most reliable ignition with all my rifles using a level pan of powder that is filled 1-2 flash hole diameters below the bottom edge of the flash hole. A 3gr charger generally delivers the right amount and insures consistency. My flash holes are 1/16” or smaller. If required, a tap of the heel of my hand against the lock will level the powder.

Hi My flash holes are 3/64" This photo is of a copy of a label in a Beckwith gun case , it shows one of the earliest patent breaches . The Hawken bros used a simplified version of this .

 

[Rudyard]

That breeching dosn't show how the first anti chamber is formed it like the Nocks had a plug from the LH side (In a Single ) and this plan I have used throughout for any gun of any pretensions to quality Bakers one sixteeth & one 32' part is what use & the better gun have the Berilium copper vents .
Rudyard

 

[R. S. Morris]

Click youtube from the video. Once in on the bottom right is a icon shaped like a gear. click on that and you can adjust the playback speed. works great also for learning guitar from videos. Just remember to set it back or else all future videos will be in slow mo.