Paper Cartridge Dangers?

[Badgerfarm]

Yes the traditional way is very tedious and if you don't cast for yourself it does make a difference. It's a sizable investment in molds, sizers, melting pots and all the rest of the stuff that goes along with that. I didn't mean to intrude on the thread but thought that some of the guys might like to see some of the other methods out there. I'll step away from this one now.

 

[Enfieldguy]

When I'm talking about the N-SSA ban on paper cartridges, I'm referring to their ban on paper-patch cartridges like the British Pritchett round. I've been told there is a fear of fire down-range. It is clear they don't understand how the Pritchett is constructed and how it operates. For an organization dedicated to shooting period weapons and ammunition under period conditions they are purposely ignoring a cartridge that played a big part in the conflict.

My combustible revolver cartridges are constructed as close to the originals as possible, with the exception of the adhesive. I use linen paper that is nitrated and the rounds are dip-lubed in a beeswax/mutton tallow lube. I have no issues with burning ember's and get nearly complete combustion. I'll get 40+ rounds without any binding.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The gulf's wax and Sally curling papers are in my post box as we speak.

Going to roll carts tonight, and shoot them tomorrow.

Thanks!

 

[bigted]

As in my picture in the upper left atests ... I roll and shoot many paper cartridges in my revolvers. Mine are rolled with zig zag cigarette papers on a wooden forming dowel tapered just rite.

Never had a cook off ( knock on wood). I am always aware of this possibility tho. I have always wondered if this ever has happened as well.

I would extend a hearty welcome for a first hand experience with this seemingly possible thing. Or is it just possible that this is a false possible and a fable handed down by folks?

I do not know either. Need to have experienced folks pipe up here with wisdom.

 

[William P Sepessy]

I have also used the Sally brand hair curling papers and don't bother to nitrate them. I have been making a cone shaped powder "packet" without ball attached(I use a variety of bullets) and have tried to simulate loading at a Cowboy Match where you may not have time to thoroughly check the cylinder. I have just inserted the paper cartridges right on top of whatever residue was left in the cylinder from previous firings. This with both 36 & 44 guns. So far in three years worth of a few thousand rounds I have yet to have a single mis-fire/hang-fire. I have only done this for my own satisfaction to make certain I would be safe doing this procedure at a Match. At this point I am convinced and used these paper cartridges for the first time this year at a Match. Loading was both faster and easier.

 

[ASMman]

Hello All,

The original question was "Say the paper leaves a smoldering ember in the cylinders, well what would happen during reloading another paper cartridge in there?" Worst scenario it would be about like setting it on a burning candle, or maybe it would stomp just out the ember.

I've looked at this route of shooting along with other methods, loading loose powder does have the risk of a chain fire (this scares the hell out of me). So with that alone I feel shooting cartridges are safer than shooting loose powder. Many ask which cartridge is the way to go, I feel Brass is probably the safest, but the paper cartridge is a close second. The bottom line is the Shooter must be aware of the issues of what could happen. Unfortunately we (myself included) are usually in to big of a hurry or to ignorant to be aware of what might happen.

Just my 2 cents worth, AntiqueSledMan.

 

[Enfield58]

I tried using paper cartridges. I did not have the problem with any burning embers in the paper.

The problem that I had was with the un-burnt paper that was left in the chamber and miss-fires.

Sometimes, the paper blocked the flash hole and would not ignite or I would get a hang-fire. I thought that the paper cartridge would burst open sufficiently to spill the powder over the flash hole during the bullet seating process. That wasn't happening all the time.

The other problem was that fragments of un-burnt paper were left over in the chamber and they were a royal PITA to clean out.

I gave up on paper cartridges and went back to using rubber thread protectors to carry my charges. I buy the rubber caps in bulk at:

http://www.argonmasking.com/color_coded_vinyl_caps.php

If you are shooting a .451-457 round ball, I would suggest VC437 or the VC437-1500 part numbers. Each of them have an inside diameter of .437" but are either 1 or 1.5 inches long depending on the powder charge you are using.

I just get the caps that are 1.5 inches in length. That way I don't have to worry about stuffing enough powder in it for my Colt Dragoon.

For the .36 caliber revolver I would suggest part number VC355-1500BL which has an inside diameter of .355 inches.

Before using theses rubber caps, you will want to wash them. I usually wash them with some dirty rags with the hottest water. I separate the rubber caps from the rags after washing then let them dry for several days. If you have a case dryer for center-fire cartridges you can also dry them that way. Remember that these are made of high temperature rubber.

The reason for washing is to get all the oil out of the caps which might migrate into the powder causing ignition problems later.

When ready for use, I simply pour the required amount of powder in the cap and stuff a round ball in the open end. When ready to shoot, I squeeze the ball out and pour the powder in the chamber and seat the ball. The empties are tossed in a large coffee can that I carry to the range with me.

After using the rubber caps, I wash them as before because my hands usually have lubricant on them and it gets on the rubber. I probably don't need to re-wash them but don't want to take a chance on any lubricant getting on the inside of the caps.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread and rain on the paper cartridge parade but I didn't have very good luck with them. It is so much faster to load up several hundred rubber caps at home and toss them in a box to go shooting later.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I tried using paper cartridges. I did not have the problem with any burning embers in the paper.

The problem that I had was with the un-burnt paper that was left in the chamber and miss-fires.

Sometimes, the paper blocked the flash hole and would not ignite or I would get a hang-fire. I thought that the paper cartridge would burst open sufficiently to spill the powder over the flash hole during the bullet seating process. That wasn't happening all the time.

The other problem was that fragments of un-burnt paper were left over in the chamber and they were a royal PITA to clean out.

I gave up on paper cartridges and went back to using rubber thread protectors to carry my charges. I buy the rubber caps in bulk at:

http://www.argonmasking.com/color_coded_vinyl_caps.php

If you are shooting a .451-457 round ball, I would suggest VC437 or the VC437-1500 part numbers. Each of them have an inside diameter of .437" but are either 1 or 1.5 inches long depending on the powder charge you are using.

I just get the caps that are 1.5 inches in length. That way I don't have to worry about stuffing enough powder in it for my Colt Dragoon.

For the .36 caliber revolver I would suggest part number VC355-1500BL which has an inside diameter of .355 inches.

Before using theses rubber caps, you will want to wash them. I usually wash them with some dirty rags with the hottest water. I separate the rubber caps from the rags after washing then let them dry for several days. If you have a case dryer for center-fire cartridges you can also dry them that way. Remember that these are made of high temperature rubber.

The reason for washing is to get all the oil out of the caps which might migrate into the powder causing ignition problems later.

When ready for use, I simply pour the required amount of powder in the cap and stuff a round ball in the open end. When ready to shoot, I squeeze the ball out and pour the powder in the chamber and seat the ball. The empties are tossed in a large coffee can that I carry to the range with me.

After using the rubber caps, I wash them as before because my hands usually have lubricant on them and it gets on the rubber. I probably don't need to re-wash them but don't want to take a chance on any lubricant getting on the inside of the caps.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread and rain on the paper cartridge parade but I didn't have very good luck with them. It is so much faster to load up several hundred rubber caps at home and toss them in a box to go shooting later.

What do you do about lube? I’ve seen someone on YouTube use those rubber tubes and he sticks a wonder wad in front of the ball.

 

[Enfield58]

What do you do about lube? I’ve seen someone on YouTube use those rubber tubes and he sticks a wonder wad in front of the ball.

I used the wonder wads before but never liked them for prolonged shooting. If you were going to take a few rounds in the field they would be okay.

I never tried putting them in the rubber caps before. If I were to try that, I would probably put the ball in first and seat it deep enough to put the wad on top of the ball.

Then, when squeezing the ball out of the cap, the wad would naturally come out with the ball.

If you put the wad in the rubber cap first and the ball in last, I would worry about granules of powder clinging to the wad and making a mess. We need to keep blackpowder shooting from getting too smelly and messy

My pre-loads for the Colt Dragoon use 40 grains of FFFG. So the ball comes pretty close to the end of the tube and there is no room for a wonder wad. That is even for a rubber tube that is 1.5 inches long.

The next larger charge is for the 1858 Remington; using 30 grains FFFG. I took an old wonder wad and put it in the end of the tube to see if it would fit. It was perfect. See the photo below.

I make up my own lubricant. 1/3 Beeswax and 2/3 vegetable oil or olive oil.

I melt the beeswax in a big pot on the stove at it's lowest setting. Some folks use a double boiler but, on low, my electric stove hasn't given me any problems. I use a ladle to pour the beeswax into a measuring cup. I put 1/3 cup of beeswax in the cup.

Then I fill it with vegetable oil. The oil is cooler than the melted wax and you will see some solidifying taking place. I put the cup in the microwave for a minute then stir up the contents to make sure it is blended well. Then I pour the lubricant in another container to cool.

I also shoot a lot of air guns and save the containers that the pellets come in. They are great for storing all sorts of odds and ends. So I pour the melted wax and oil combination in the empty containers.

I lost count of how many rounds the container is good for but you can shoot a lot with the small amount of lube in these containers.

I used to use a 50/50 solution of beeswax and oil but found that even in warm weather it was too stiff to work with. The 1/3 wax and 2/3 oil combination is just right in warm or cold weather. Old pop-sickle sticks or never-used tongue depressors work good for spreading the lube over the chamber mouths.

I get the wood sticks from Hobby Lobby really cheap: https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Painting-Surfaces/Wood/Wood-Craft-Sticks---Jumbo/p/23695

As a joke, I made up some labels to cut out and glue over the lids of the used pellet containers which are attached. Please feel free to download them and pass them around.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

+1 for Enfield 58. I have just spent the last few weeks experimenting with paper cartridges in my 1860 Colt. I have tried cigarette rolling papers (three kinds), coffee filter paper, linen typing paper, and perm papers; some nitrated, some plain. I have loaded Pyrodex P, 3Fg Swiss black powder, and Goex 3Fg powders. I have loaded with lubed felt wads (home made), grease cookie in the cartridge between the load and ball, over-ball lube discs (also home made, cut with a sharpened .458 casing), no lube of any kind, and traditional cap and ball grease over the ball. I dipped loaded balls in both paraffin and my secrets home made lube.I have used Remington, CCI, and RWS caps. I have used home-cast .454 and store-bought .454 round balls. I have tried glue sticks, super glue, school glue (like Elmers), and water glass.

Here are some of my observations:

I never found any "burning embers" in my chambers after firing paper cartridges, but I have found small to large amounts of paper left behind. Without removing any residual paper (a pain in the tail unless you have a hooked tool with you), odds were good that the paper left behind would be compressed under the new charge, resulting in a blocked flash hole. Sometimes a second cap would burn through, other times I had to remove the cylinder, remove the nipple from that chamber, dribble in some loose powder under the nipple, reassemble, and fire. That always worked.

As far as papers are concerned, I took similar sized pieces of each paper type and lit them in the open air by lighting one corner to see how long it took for them to burn. I then did the same after nitrating each type of paper. The clear winner, both plain and nitrated, was the perm papers. Cigarette papers always left unburned paper behind and were the cause of most of my failures to fire.

Papers glued with super glue often caused ignition issues if the base of the cartridge (nipple end) was hard from the glue. Glue sticks were better.

Accuracy was not much different from poured powder loads, with the exception of occasional flyers caused by delayed ignition of some paper types.

Cartridges dipped in parafin (too stiff) lost their lube when loading (paraffin was brittle and broke up and fell off.) My secret lube fared better. Cartridges with a grease cookie over the powder fired like all the others, with no powder contamination, but they were loaded and shot within two days. I don't think long-term they would be as effective. A grease cookie pressed over the loaded ball worked very well. It was easier to apply them and less messy than applying traditional lube from a tube.

While I will continue to experiment (adult play), at the range I found that resorting to my old N-SSA days of pre-loaded tubes with weighed charges, corn meal filler for lighter loads, round ball followed by grease (wax cookie or lube) was most satisfactory in terms of accuracy, little fowling, long strings of fire without having to disassemble and clean. RWS caps rule (if you can find them and/or afford them).

I still carry a pocket full of rubber thread protectors (as reference above by Enfield 58) with pre-loaded powder charges and round balls) for quick reloads in the field. Cartridges have been fun and interesting to experiment with, but for me not worth the effort. Anyone want to buy 495 coffee filters and an almost-full container of potassium nitrate? I will throw in 995 perm papers.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I used the wonder wads before but never liked them for prolonged shooting. If you were going to take a few rounds in the field they would be okay.

I never tried putting them in the rubber caps before. If I were to try that, I would probably put the ball in first and seat it deep enough to put the wad on top of the ball.

Then, when squeezing the ball out of the cap, the wad would naturally come out with the ball.

If you put the wad in the rubber cap first and the ball in last, I would worry about granules of powder clinging to the wad and making a mess. We need to keep blackpowder shooting from getting too smelly and messy

My pre-loads for the Colt Dragoon use 40 grains of FFFG. So the ball comes pretty close to the end of the tube and there is no room for a wonder wad. That is even for a rubber tube that is 1.5 inches long.

The next larger charge is for the 1858 Remington; using 30 grains FFFG. I took an old wonder wad and put it in the end of the tube to see if it would fit. It was perfect. See the photo below.

View attachment 16270

I make up my own lubricant. 1/3 Beeswax and 2/3 vegetable oil or olive oil.

I melt the beeswax in a big pot on the stove at it's lowest setting. Some folks use a double boiler but, on low, my electric stove hasn't given me any problems. I use a ladle to pour the beeswax into a measuring cup. I put 1/3 cup of beeswax in the cup.

Then I fill it with vegetable oil. The oil is cooler than the melted wax and you will see some solidifying taking place. I put the cup in the microwave for a minute then stir up the contents to make sure it is blended well. Then I pour the lubricant in another container to cool.

I also shoot a lot of air guns and save the containers that the pellets come in. They are great for storing all sorts of odds and ends. So I pour the melted wax and oil combination in the empty containers.

View attachment 16261

I lost count of how many rounds the container is good for but you can shoot a lot with the small amount of lube in these containers.

I used to use a 50/50 solution of beeswax and oil but found that even in warm weather it was too stiff to work with. The 1/3 wax and 2/3 oil combination is just right in warm or cold weather. Old pop-sickle sticks or never-used tongue depressors work good for spreading the lube over the chamber mouths.

I get the wood sticks from Hobby Lobby really cheap: https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Painting-Surfaces/Wood/Wood-Craft-Sticks---Jumbo/p/23695

As a joke, I made up some labels to cut out and glue over the lids of the used pellet containers which are attached. Please feel free to download them and pass them around.

Awesome, thanks so much friend! Yes the guy on YouTube is named Blackie Thomas and he places the wad atop the ball in the little yellow tubes. I’m going to get a pack. The paper cartridges are certainly fun but I imagine the tubes are much hardier for field use.

 

[Enfield58]

Awesome, thanks so much friend! Yes the guy on YouTube is named Blackie Thomas and he places the wad atop the ball in the little yellow tubes. I’m going to get a pack. The paper cartridges are certainly fun but I imagine the tubes are much hardier for field use.

I've been using the rubber tubes for years. Just remember to wash them and dry them before the first use. The oil they use in the manufacturing process could contaminate the powder.

I'd also recommend washing and drying after every use was well.

Again, I wash them in hot water in the washing machine with some rags. Separate them and dry. If you have a food dehydrator (that you don't use anymore) or case drier put them in there to dry.

The heat won't hurt them as they are a high-temp resistant material.