Paper cartridges, paper cartridges... (Think the old song Paper Roses).

[user 54092]

Now that I stuck that old song in your head (if your old enough) I apologize.

Joking aside, if you have been rolling your own I have a newbie question. Is dipping the cartridges in lube enough to prevent chain fires. (Yes I subscribe to the theory that it happens from the front.)
Reason for asking is I have an Uberti 60 Navy I've bought specifically for using the Colt conicals, and the fit isn't tight at all. I've been spreading lube over the mouth of the chambers and now am considering going the next step but am concerned about what seems to be a larger chamber mouth than, say, my Pietta 60 Navy Sherif, which requires a goodly amount of oomph to seat a round ball which, again, isn't necessary with the Uberti. Almost like there are two sizes of .36 cal.

BTW, I cast my own conicals using the mold Eras Gone offers.

 

[Pete453]

Trgt,
I don't know about Eras Gone moulds, but Lee conicals fit great, and they shoot a bit better than balls in my cranky Uberti Navy

 

[user 54092]

Yes mine is a Lee as well, do you load straight out of the powder flask or do you roll paper? Not much of a ring is cut from the one I have.

 

[William P Sepessy]

If you are talking about 36's, you probably mean 61 Navies. Anyway Pietta chamber mouths are typically .367 and Ubertis are usually .372 which accounts for the difference you feel in loading. I know the Eras Gone bullet is tapered but you can still use a sizing die to tailor the bullet fit to chamber mouth. I mention that because you are casting the bullets yourself and presume you are using them as they drop from the mold. I have avoided a lot of headaches over the years by doing this. As far as dipping the paper cartridges, a lot depends on your lube mixture but I don't believe you want to dip the entire cartridge. The few times I tried that in the past I got a lot of paper residue left in the chambers after firing.

 

[user 54092]

No it's just the bullet you dip. I've never used a sizing die.

 

[maillemaker]

I think you are talking about a Colt 1861 Navy if we are talking .36 caliber.

I don't remember the bullet size off the top of my head but it should be large enough to shave lead when driven home.

Anyway any lube will help prevent chain fires. I suspect lubed bullets with a lube groove are superior to smearing it over the top of the bullets, as anything over the top of the bullets tends to get blasted away when the neighboring shot is fired.

 

[Eutycus]

Does it really need to be conical? Couldn't round balls be used in cartridges as well?

 

[maillemaker]

I have seen people make cartridges using round balls, but historically, they were some variant of conical.

 

[Pete453]

My Lee mould is the modern one, not one of eras gone's. I've shot it in an Uberti 51 Navy loading from the flask. I don't know if there's room for paper around the base to make a cartridge, I haven't tried it, but I have made paper cartridges with balls and RAW cig papers like these, I can tell you that they work well.

 

[user 54092]

My lube is blast proof, I finally worked out a formula that stays put, a bit of trial and error, but from what I've read it should remain semi solid until the shot is fired. Just stuff it in and there you go, is as sticky as what I'm told is right and proper for lube. When I started this journey decades ago I learned Crisco will melt by itself, but with the right ingredients in the proper ratio it'll work like a charm.
Yes, as with any Navy, it's 36 cal. (Except maybe a Remington, is a Remington a Navy if in 36 cal.? Not sure, no Naval battle depicted on the cylinder.) Yes it is a 61, (no real bearing on the question, but, hey, OK). I've rolled the paper with the kit from Era Gone and it leaves the lube ring exposed, it doesn't cover the whole of the projectile. The lube ring is as far as you dunk the bullet into hot lube. And this is the original question, is that enough lube to keep the chamber sealed? I think this was the historical application for pistol ammo, rifles using the cartridges depicted above.
Since sizing a round shaves it to a smaller state, isn't really applicable to the question because, as was stated, Ubertis have a greater size chamber opening than Pietta. Of course I may be wrong about sizing and maybe it can add lead to where needed to get a more tighter fit in the chamber. But the ring cut with the Uberi is smaller than the ring cut with the Pietta so how much less of a seal is there between the 2?
I read that the 36 Colt conical was designed just for the Navy 61 (not sure of the 51,) and so a larger cut out in the bottom of the barrel to accommodate loading the Colt conical. Now whether or not the Lee mold is true to historical specs is something else. But they (the bullets made from said mold) slide in easier than I thought they would, or should?

 

[Pete453]

And this is the original question, is that enough lube to keep the chamber sealed?

Yes, but that's not the actual purpose of the lube. It's to keep barrel fouling soft. If your bullets are swaging into the chambers and don't back out when fired, they are correct. As far as adding lead, you would have to lap out the mould. A sizer smallers bullets down, not up. No need to size black powder revolver bullets unless using a bullet not intended for black powder use.

 

[user 54092]

Yes, you are correct about the lube's original intent, but my experience is that it has a secondary benefit of preventing chain fires, the type of which I've experienced whenever I've been lazy and not put a gob of lube over the mouth of the chamber or wad under the ball. Not so whenever I've used lube or wad. Hence my theory that chain fires originate up front and the reason for this thread. I hate the surprise of a 1&1/2 barreled pistol.

 

[wiscoaster]

... I have made paper cartridges with balls and RAW cig papers like these, I can tell you that they work well.

I'm ready to try making paper cartridges, and I like the look of yours packed with balls and twist tied. Are you using some kind of a jig to form, fill and/or seat, and what and where did you get it? Thanks ...

 

[Pete453]

Wiscoaster,
I carved my former from a maple branch. This is a picture of the drawing I made of its dimensions, you may have to adjust for your usage.
I've been using the glue shown, it's nitrocellulose based so burns completely, and is cheaper than Duco.

At first, I was doing it like Omnivores video, it worked good, but was a little time consuming. Then I found Rob Goebels video and I've been doing it like that since.
You tube MVI 1859 by Omnivore. Also on YouTube, PAPER CARTRIDGES FOR CAB AND BALL REVOLVERS by ROB GOEBEL.

If you search on here, and you'd be missing out if you didn't, search ROLLING APERS FOR PAPER CARTRIDGES, also PAPER CARTRIDGES. There's a lot of info on this site, my way is certainly not the only way. Check it out and use what works for you. Good luck, and pics of your cartridges.

 

[wiscoaster]

Thanks, Pete.

Links to above referred YouTube videos:

 

[Pete453]

Thanks for putting up the links, I wouldn't know how to do that. Now others can check them out too. There's a whole bunch of videos on YouTube for those using different tools, a person could watch for days, that's my kind of tv!

 

[Pete453]

Check out the YouTube link in the thread "The Crossen Cartridge Former". There's a quick video of an excellent tool for those that don't want to make their tools. If I was starting now I think I would buy the tool shown.

 

[wiscoaster]

Couple of YouTube videos I came up with searching for that device mentioned by @Pete453





Note: the first video will play if you click on the YouTube link.

 

[Pete453]

Oops, I should've been more specific! The video I was referring to is the one in 3.6roentgen's post, it's called "paper cartridges for 36 & 44,etc". The tool in that video is a simple, 3 piece tool, there's info in the description. Check it out, it's a neat setup. Not that the Crossen tool isn't a gem, it is.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I use Guns of the West kit, and it works gang buster, The one above looks like a copy of the one I have.

Hard gettin them in...