paper cartridges

[wicket]

Ran an experiment based on what was around the house. "Top" brand cigarette papers were used, one left plain, and another three brushed with amber shellac, Duco cement thinned with acetone, and Deft nitro lacquer. The cartridges were lightly formed with a single wrap overlapping around 1/8 inch; the bottom crimped around the edge and sealed with a glued paper disk. Duco cement was used as an adhesive on all cartridges. I loaded each cartridge with 15 grains of powder behind a conical, and fired each round from a clean chamber in my 1861 navy.
The plain paper was dirtiest, it left about 50% paper residue behind, but was not smouldering when i checked the chamber immediately after the shot. The cartridge treated with Duco Cement was slightly better, about 30% of it remained in the chamber, not smouldering. Deft lacquer left behind about 20%, again no embers. Shellac performed best leaving 15% residue, none of it smouldering.
A single coating of the substances tested didn't make a substantial difference in the strength of the cartridges during forming. They all rolled neatly without wrinkling, glued well, and held together during both fabrication and loading.
Since both Duco cement and Deft lacquer are nitrocellulose based, their performance in the experiment suggests that airplane dope applied in a single coating will perform at about the same level of efficiency.

 

[Tinker2]

Magicians Flash Paper works well for me

I have used flash paper to make my paper cartridges for years.
It does not take much to set them off and it all burns up.


William Alexander

 

[wicket]

William, what's the commercially available magician's flash paper you use like? I am quite curious as to it's weight compared to cigarette type paper, and whether it is shipped wet as i've heard, and has a limited shelf life. You're the first person i've encountered who's actually used it to form cartridges.
Commercial flash paper doesn't appear to be all that expensive considering how little it takes to form a pistol cartridge, i'm rather surprised that nobody else has mentioned actually using it.

 

[Tinker2]

The closest paper I would compare it to would be between rice paper and paper towels.
What I used is shipped dry. Most of what I used, I got in a magicians shop.
I have never had any longer than a year before I used them.
I think that some others on this broad have tried flash paper.
Have fun, be safe.



William Alexander

 

[wicket]

I haven't run across any posts from people actually using flash paper to make cartridges, though i've seen it suggested as a possibility worth trying from time to time. Lot of folks equate flash paper with paper soaked in potassium nitrate, which confuses the issue.
Based on your experience, it sounds like flash paper is a safe and effective choice for making cartridges. It's good to know that it's not so inherently unstable that it needs to be shipped wet, and that it has a shelf life of at least a year, that may encourage some folks to give the commercial product a try.

 

[Tinker2]

I have only used black powder when I make some

Flash paper does of course ignite very easy so be careful




William Alexander

 

[wicket]

They are indeed flammable, the low auto ignition temperature (338 F.)is probably the reason nobody produces combustible cartridges commercially.
I currently package my cartridges in individual cells bored into wooden six round packets with only the bullet exposed when the lid is lifted, though i used to wrap them in aluminum foil.
I don't like having more than a hundred rounds or so made up at any given time, and store them in a small refrigerator at 40 degrees.
As i've said before, NC combustibles aren't for everybody, but they are very quick to load and beat toting a bunch of supplies along every time i want to go do some shooting.

 

[swathdiver]

Alright fellas, try this: get some of your wife's wax paper and light it up... :thumbsup:

 

[wicket]

Dunno Swath, not even Sergeant York's mother's wax paper burns like NC, and they told me in the Army she was an angel!

 

[crockett]

Sixgunner- hope you are still reading this thread. There are quite a few books written on this subject plus loads of magazine articles in old magazines such as the Gun Report. Terry White has done a lot of work on this topic. There are associations that collect old ammunition and packets of old combustible ammunition is a favorite. Then there are the various patents still on file with the patent office if you have a depository nearby. I'm fortunate in that one of the national depositories is only a short drive from where I live.
So, maybe I can shorten the learning curve for you a little.
Like you I naturally thought the reason the paper was treated with nitrates (and sulfuric acid) was to make it flammable SO the flame of the percussion cap would cause the shell to burn and then the fire would burn through the case and explode the gunpowder inside. Who wouldn't think that? Well, when I found out the original combustible cartridges used extremely thin sheets of tin foil I was confused. Metal doesn't burn, how could the flame of the percussion cap burn through tin to explode the powder charge? In reading the original sources I found out that on a percussion revolver you have a straight line from the nipple into the chamber and the blast of the percussion cap was plenty strong and blew apart/ruptured the thin tin case- exposing the powder charge and firing the round. In reading the original documents I found out that the big concern was a case material that WAS flammable but did not completely burn up. A case like that would leave smoldering fragments in the chamber and when the shooter put in another round, the smoldering fragments would burn through the flammable case and explode the round while the shooter was ramming it into the chamber-possibly killing the shooter.
So, that is why they used tin. It was not flammable and would not smolder. The problem with tin was it obviously did not all burn up so after about six rounds were fired in one chamber there was so much residue that you could not ram a new round completely into the chamber. Something better was needed.
That's when the idea of treating paper with flammable acids got started. If the paper could be made to completely burn up then there was nothing left that could be smoldering and holding an ember. Colt went with this approach.
The fish gut case was a little different and D.C. Sage of Middleton, CT was the major manufacturer of that type ammunition. Sage was the one that talked about the fish gut case would "crisp" but once again the purpose of the "crisp" was a burnt residue that would not hold an ember.
SO WHY ALL THE CONFUSION?
Today we use cigarette paper quite often in making these cases and one quick way is to fold the paper over at the base which sort of creates a wad. This wad can actually absorb a pretty good shock and doesn't always create an instant explosion. Some folks tear open the base of the case and pour the powder into the chamber, or punch a hole in the base of the case, etc. In any event what is being done today is really a different thing from the original ammunition.
Of course I just had to test all this stuff out on my own. Using cigarette paper with a design that puts a single layer of paper at the bottom of the chamber, and the load rammed fully down, I get 100% ignition. I then tried untreated newspaper (blank) which is three times thicker than the cigarette paper. Once again the design had a single layer of paper at the base and the round was fully seated. I got 100% ignition however others have reported less than 100%. Since the paper is untreated you have to physically clean out the chambers of all residue before reloading.
What about the foil? Well Colt used tin foil from Germany- it was the only foil that reliably worked. I found the wrappers on candy had a paper backed metal foil (I assume aluminum) so I carefully peeled off the paper and had very tin foil. With the inflammable foil ignition dropped down to only 70% and the residue was so bad that after 3 rounds you could not fully seat a new round but it was pretty amazing the foil worked.
The tapered shape? I don't know. Maybe to more easily put the round in the chamber? The other idea is the taper created gaps between the case and chamber walls- maybe the action of ramming caused the tapered case to break open, facilitating ignition.

 

[wicket]

Just to clarify, the paper in combustible cartridges wasn't treated with flammable acids, neither nitric or sulfuric acid burns. The combination of the acids converts cellulose to nitrocellulose (3HNO3+ C6H10O5 → C6H7(NO2)3O5 + 3H2O) with sulfuric acid acting as a catalyst. The nitrocellulose molecule supplies its own oxygen during combustion, and produces nothing but energy and gasses as combustion products.

 

[cynthialee]

I wouldn't want to mess around with chemicals just for the right pistol cartridge paper. Mess around and hurt myself or raise the eye of the authorities. No thanks. I will stick with rolling paper for my quick loads.

 

[wicket]

Purchasing concentrated nitric acid would almost certainly attract the interest of the authorities, and concentrated sulfuric can cause severe chemical burns if carelessly handled. Happily,nobody on this thread is advocating the home production of nitrocellulose. Legal, and properly manufactured magician's flash paper is generally available online or from shops catering to amateur and professional magicians, it appears to be a suitable material for the construction of combustible cartridges as long as folks experimenting with it follow proper precautions.

 

[crockett]

Yeah- I was only pointing out that the original stuff was different and what we use today won't act the same. Also, you probably would not want to use the original stuff as I think it was highly corrosive to the firearm. The military didn't care, rapid reloading was more important and they probably thought the war would be over before corrosion rended a firearm unuseable.
I use plain old cogarette paper and USUALLY there isn't much residue in the chamber but you need to check before reloading.
If you wad up the back of your replica paper cartridges and have to tear them open, well, where's the harm? You still have a fast means to reload.

 

[wicket]

In terms of combustible cartridges, i'm not especially comfortable with the notion of attempting to make them by soaking paper in a solution of potassium nitrate. They won't necessarily burn away reliably, so the chamber has to be checked, and any debris removed before reloading. If you're going to follow that procedure, what's the point of using the nitrate in the first place?
None of the byproducts of NC combustion are corrosive, but the treated paper can contain residual acid from the manufacturing process if not carefully washed and chemically neutralized. NC can also out-gas nitrogen oxides which will combine readily with water vapor to form nitric acid. You wouldn't want to keep a revolver loaded with NC based combustibles for a protracted period, this is what the Army may have noticed.
We've all heard the stories about how Wild Bill Hickok fired and reloaded his guns every morning, perhaps he was aware that combustible cartridges could cause corrosion if left in the weapon for too long.

 

[swathdiver]

Did you try it yet Mr. Wicket? See how fast it burns up?

 

[Capnballhunter]

Make mine with E-Z Wider brand cigarette papers and have never had one fail to ignite with a single cap. Use them in my 1858 Remington.

Made a tapered mold for the tubes from a dowel, Just twist the paper around it, lick the adhesive and twist the one end shut. I put a drop of Elmers on the twisted end.

Drop in 35 or 40 grains fffg and a .454 round ball. Quick easy loading, just cram one in the chamber and ram it on home.

I use #11 Remington caps, which are nice and hot.

 

[Bear Rider]

You are getting Remington #11s to stay on? I ended up with the #10s.

Also, how what are the dimensions of your tapered dowel? I used a 3-1/2" long 1/2" dia wooden dowel, chucked it up in a drill and tapered the last 2-1/2" in a more or less straight taper to 1/4" diameter. Through trial an error, I found how far up the taper the top of the paper had to be to fit a round ball, and cut a notch to mark the spot.

I do my cartridges in batches of 50, while watching the idiot box -- cut 50 blanks, form 50 tubes, glue in 50 balls, then fill with powder and close the end.

I pay close attention during my final assembly step. I melt beeswax in a double boiler and then dip the ball end of the finished cartridge into the beeswax just to the equator, so that it overlaps the paper, to give it a good seal and to act as a lube.

Finally, I pack the cartridges in squares of aluminum foil, with one complete reload per pack -- 5 for competition, 6 for in the field.

I carry a small bore mop that I put a tiny handle on. I keep it in a tube where it stays damp, but not wet, and I use it to swab the cylinder between reloads. I don't know how effective it really is, but it gives me some piece of mind.

 

[wicket]

I followed your suggestion Swath, and tried waxed paper. In air it burns slowly and leaves a lot of crud behind on the test tile. I went ahead and rolled up a tapering cartridge from it, sealed the base with a single disk of wax paper, and loaded the cartridge with 15 grains of black powder and a conical. It didn't glue well with Duco cement, but other glues might be better. I loaded the cartridge into a clean chamber, put on a CCI # 11 cap and pulled the trigger.The cap fired, but the cartridge didn't. Second cap fired it.
There wasn't any residual paper left in the chamber nor an unusual amount of fouling, i think wax paper would make acceptable cartridges if the right glue was used (i had particular trouble getting the bullet to stick in the mouth of the cartridge), and if the cartridge base was sealed with a disk of cigarette paper instead of waxed paper.
Oh, and thank you for getting me interested in paper cartridges, it was your post about making them with your kids, and all the fun you guys had, that got me experimenting with the things.Have you tried flash paper Swath?

 

[Capnballhunter]

Bearrider, my tapered dowel has very similar dimensions to yours. 1/2 inch tapered on a lathe to 1/4 in 3 inches. The #11 Remingtons fit tightly as long as you give them a slight pinch. Have yet to have one fall off. 10s do fit tighter.