Paper nitrating question

[maillemaker]

Potassium Nitrate is also known as Saltpeter(Saltpetre). Be VERY CAREFUL not to ingest it, it has a DOWNER of a side effect!

This is an old myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate"Potassium nitrate was once thought to induce impotence, and is still rumored to be in institutional food (such as military fare) as an anaphrodisiac; however, there is no scientific evidence for such properties.[64][65]"

https://beta-static.fishersci.com/c...ocuments/sds/chemicals/chemicals-p/S25494.pdf
Potassium Nitrate can cause skin irritation.

I experimented with nitrated paper for combustible Sharps cartridges. It does indeed result in a more complete-burning cartridge.

However, the cartridges will then be also instantly ignitable by any errant ember left in the chamber. Now it is likely that the lead bullet being pushed into the chamber would push any embers out of the way. But I felt that a non-nitrated cartridge would be pretty much impervious to being set off by an ember in the chamber, and much more likely to snuff it out. I would not want a cartridge to go "poof" on me in an open Sharps breech. I also found that even with regular paper the charred husk left behind would crumble at the slightest touch, so I do not think it caused any problems for the next round being fired. I did not pursue nitrating any further.

 

[springfield art]

Yeah, the large size 'rolling papers' with the French guy on the label. Already nitrated.

 

[ernbar]

This is an old myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate"Potassium nitrate was once thought to induce impotence, and is still rumored to be in institutional food (such as military fare) as an anaphrodisiac; however, there is no scientific evidence for such properties.[64][65]"

https://beta-static.fishersci.com/c...ocuments/sds/chemicals/chemicals-p/S25494.pdf
Potassium Nitrate can cause skin irritation.

I experimented with nitrated paper for combustible Sharps cartridges. It does indeed result in a more complete-burning cartridge.

However, the cartridges will then be also instantly ignitable by any errant ember left in the chamber. Now it is likely that the lead bullet being pushed into the chamber would push any embers out of the way. But I felt that a non-nitrated cartridge would be pretty much impervious to being set off by an ember in the chamber, and much more likely to snuff it out. I would not want a cartridge to go "poof" on me in an open Sharps breech. I also found that even with regular paper the charred husk left behind would crumble at the slightest touch, so I do not think it caused any problems for the next round being fired. I did not pursue nitrating any further.

That is exactly why I let the gun cool off for several minutes as a safety measure just in case.

 

[maillemaker]

That is exactly why I let the gun cool off for several minutes as a safety measure just in case.

That is always a good idea when you have that opportunity. I shoot in N-SSA rapid fire competition so we are shooting against the clock.

 

[wiscoaster]

....maybe I'll try it both ways.

All part of the fun.

 

[Felix the Cat]

Nitration of cellulose is achieved by treatment with nitric and sulphuric acids. Dipping paper in Potassium Nitrate simply coats it. It does not change the cellulose in any way..

.. just sayin!

 

[wiscoaster]

Nitration of cellulose is achieved by treatment with nitric and sulphuric acids. Dipping paper in Potassium Nitrate simply coats it. It does not change the cellulose in any way..

.. just sayin!

Sorry, no, I think you're half wrong and half right, but it doesn't just coat the paper, it's absorbed into the paper. Doesn't need to change the cellulose in order to be effective.

 

[Bad Karma]

Nitration of cellulose is achieved by treatment with nitric and sulphuric acids. Dipping paper in Potassium Nitrate simply coats it. It does not change the cellulose in any way..

.. just sayin!

What would it take to nitrate the cellulose?

 

[Felix the Cat]

What would it take to nitrate the cellulose?

Nitration of cellulose is achieved by reacting it with concentrated nitric acid. The reaction creates a series of nitrate esters mainly mononitrocellulose, dinitrocellulose and trinitrocellulose. The percentage of each depends on the purity of the original cellulose and the concentration of the nitric acid.
The reaction produces water as a by product which slows the reaction and changes the percentage of the esters. To deal with this, cellulose is usually nitrated with a mixture of nitric and sulphuric acids, the sulphuric acid takes up the water and keeps the nitration process going.

This is the basic method of making nitro propellent. The resulting nitrocellulose is treated to remove residual acid and then formed into a solid mass, usually by dissolving it in acetone making a paste that can be formed into grains and then dried off.

It is a notoriously difficult reaction to control, and unless carried out under very tightly managed conditions, will produce both highly variable and often unstable products.

Treating paper with a solution of potassium nitrate will improve the burning characteristics of the paper as it adds oxygen to the burning process. It is not however "nitration" in the technical sense. Properly nitrated paper can be obtained in the form of "flash paper" from magical goods stores and reacts several orders of magnitude faster than paper treated with potassium nitrate.

 

[Bad Karma]

Nitration of cellulose is achieved by reacting it with concentrated nitric acid. The reaction creates a series of nitrate esters mainly mononitrocellulose, dinitrocellulose and trinitrocellulose. The percentage of each depends on the purity of the original cellulose and the concentration of the nitric acid.
The reaction produces water as a by product which slows the reaction and changes the percentage of the esters. To deal with this, cellulose is usually nitrated with a mixture of nitric and sulphuric acids, the sulfuric acid takes up the water and keeps the nitration process going.

This is the basic method of making nitro propellent. The resulting nitrocellulose is treated to remove residual acid and then formed into a solid mass, usually by dissolving it in acetone making a paste that can be formed into grains and then dried off.

It is a notoriously difficult reaction to control, and unless carried out under very tightly managed conditions, will produce both highly variable and often unstable products.

Treating paper with a solution of potassium nitrate will improve the burning characteristics of the paper as it adds oxygen to the burning process. It is not however "nitration" in the technical sense. Properly nitrated paper can be obtained in the form of "flash paper" from magical goods stores and reacts several orders of magnitude faster than nitro treated paper.

Dang! We have some very sharp people on the forum! Thank you for the simplified explanation to what is undoubtedly a very complex undertaking.

 

[wiscoaster]

I gotta wonder if anybody's ever tried using "flash paper" to make paper cartridges for cap 'n ball revolvers.

 

[Felix the Cat]

I gotta wonder if anybody's ever tried using "flash paper" to make paper cartridges for cap 'n ball revolvers.

Although no doubt someone has, I would advise against it.. flashpaper is a propellent in its own right and would add to the chamber pressure beyond that which the gun was designed for. Using a whole wrap of flashpaper in addition to the normal charge of GP might just be a bit excessive. It is basically nitro powder and is pressure sensitive.

The French used flashpaper as a propellent for their Lebel gallery loads in the1870s using a lead ball bullet. This works, although it is a bit dirty (... but we are in danger of subject drift here!).

Flashpaper cartridges would also be extremely sensitive to ignition from other sources during storage and handling. A pouchful of those could get real exciting if it caught fire..

 

[Bad Karma]

I gotta wonder if anybody's ever tried using "flash paper" to make paper cartridges for cap 'n ball revolvers.

Someone here did… I recall reading that, seems like he came to the conclusion that it added nothing but cost …