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Paper patch accuracy

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To a lot of you, long distance ML shooting doesn't have much interest, so because all of my hunts are over and I guess out of boredom along with a quest for the perfect load I write to those PP'ers who may be interested. I hit the range today, set my target at 200 Yards again, shot a powder shot to dirty the barrel and proceeded to commence my five shot groups. I am using the Chase single wrap system using 24# computer paper and cleaning between shots. I am using a peep with the small open center insert.

This first group was with a .060 plastic wad.The first shot went 7" low then the next three were dead center 1" apart and the fifth was 3" from the three shots.

Next I used the same system except with a .060 vegetable hard wad and I had a splattering 5 shot, 10" group.
 
cannonball1,
The more info the better.
I'm enjoying tinkering with PP for a .458 bore New Englander and .52 bore Renegade.
I'll be branching out into plain and shallow cup bases in a .58 with 48" twist (reproduction P53) soon as my adjustable length base plug shows up. Got the sizer. And the plug should be interchangeable between Lyman and Ideal blocks #'s 577611, 575602, 577030, 575494 and the 575213 new style and old style. Just wanting to try patching with it for now, not making up full cartridges.

Oh, yeah... Going excessively traditional ( :rotf: ) picked up a set of dinky little glass bottles with stoppers for pre-weighed charges too. Those really for the .52 Renegade bench gun though. So now I have to make a case for them.
 
I think it is an interesting subject. Keep us informed as to your successes and of coarse the problems you encounter.

I am from the old school of the roundball and patch system where a lot of us bounced the ramrod off the charged ball. While I don't bounce the ramrod with these PP bullets, I do put quite a bit of pressure on my Swiss powder charge. My question to you PP'ers is this: Do you put a lot of pressure on the bullet or very little pressure and mainly have you checked the accuracy with different pressures?
 
Cannonball; I don't shoot pp, yet, but can tell you in my experience shooting 58 minie balls that the amount of pressure can ABSOLUTELY change your group size.

I was getting lackluster groups (6moa) at 50 yards and I started using as much Pressure seating the minie as I could. I DIDNT pound, slam, or beat the minies, but seated the minie then applied all the force I could muster. Someone suggested using a bathroom scales and 80 lbs of pressure. I forgot the scales but applied all I could, which is kinda consistent.
Same minie, same gun, same charge, my group shrunk to HALF, shooting 2.3" at 75 yards, which is 3.06MOA.


If your rifle with a fouling shot is shooting wild the first shot then settling down I have to agree with Zonie: the barrel isn't settling in like it used to and the first shot drives it back into place, causing your following shots to be in the black.

Good luck, keep shooting
 
To the board....

Can someone tell me when paper patching started? I have no idea where that fits into the evolution of black powder shooting, and have had no luck researching the question.

Spence
 
George said:
To the board....

Can someone tell me when paper patching started? I have no idea where that fits into the evolution of black powder shooting, and have had no luck researching the question.

Spence
Very good question.
Sincerely, why use a paper patched bullet in a muzzleloader?
How does one guarantee the integrity of the paper while loading?

B.
 
I have two rifles that like the pp. one that likes grease grove

When you load the rifle you can tell if you blow through the bottom of the paper. If I do that I know my barrel is not clean enough.

I put little to no pressure on my bullet to seat it

Fleener
 
I size my bullets after I wrap them. They are sized to go down the bore with literaly the weight of the loading rod. So I should not be tearing my paper.

I use airmail paper that is 100 percent cotton. It is old paper and I bought it on flea bay


Fleener
 
I found some airmail paper on the internet, but it is not the old stuff and it measures .0020 which is just about right for my bore. It doesn't seem as strong as I would like. I guess I will give it a whirl anyway. The double wrap would really have to do well to beat the Case System. The onion skin from Buffalo Arms measured .0015 which makes the bullet a hair too loose in the barrel.

How many fliers do you use as a mulligan for elimination of your group count?
 
I shoot 3 shot groups at 100 yards. For this type of rifle, I expect to be at 1.25" or smaller, center to center measurements. Most likely I am going to be just under 1" to .75". If I was shooting a high power and able to shoot 10 shots in short order that would be one thing. With ML like this it might be taking you 2 to 3 minutes between shots. Small changes in wind and cloud condition will impact where the bullet will go. I can not find totally windless, sunny days without any mirages when I shoot. All those things push bullets around. This is with peep sights. If I was shooting a scoped ML. I would expect better.

If a bullet will not get good groups at 100 yards, you can not expect it get get better as you move farther out. I wished I could say that I could shoot a MOA as you move out to farther ranges, but with these rifles you simply can not on a regular bases.

I have shot 3 shot groups at 200 yards with a 45 cal that I scoped up that are .75". Cant necessarily do that every day or with every group. But a 14 X Leopold tactical scope strapped to the top makes a difference over peep sights.

The below picture is a 300 yard target I shot in 1998 at the NMLRA Spring match. It is a 13 shot target, you take the highest 10 shots for score. It scores 89. One of the 3 that is thrown out is out there at the 5 ring. The spread of 13 shots is just over 13". Might not look like much but when you consider there are no sighting shots in the match, it takes over 30 minutes to shoot the match. You have to get up and down for each shot, the shots are from cross sticks, peep sights, conditions are never not changing, sun, wind, other distractions etc.

The 89 score was good enough to set a new national record. I have no idea on if the record still stands or not. My guess is that it does not, I have not looked.
P1020452.JPG


A couple of years at at Oak Ridge for the 200 yard match, I was blowing the center out of the target, to the point that they quit using the scoring disk as I was destroying it as well. I ended up with a 99 6X. My last shot was a 9. Can I shoot groups everyday that has 6X's? Not a chance. But that day with those conditions it was working for me. I bet if I could shoot in a place with no wind or changing conditions, I could do that on a regular bases.

Shooting 3 shot groups at 100 yards works for me. I know what my benchmarks are and the yardstick that I use to determine an accurate load. At 100 yards it tells me what the rifle can do. Shooting farther takes more work from the shooter to shoot a tight group. The shooter becomes more and more the variable as you move farther out.

Dont take me wrong, you got to make sure your bullet is not falling apart (not literally) for longer ranges as well.

One day at a match I asked a buddy of mine from another state that I shoot long range with what kind of groups that he gets at 100 yards. He replied that he has no idea. He has never done it. He has his own yardstick that he uses for what he determines for him what an accurate load is.

What I do works for me. I also realize that I might be able to improve on what I do. Constantly looking and thinking about how to change things to make my shooting better is what most of us try to do. Somethings work, somethings do not.

Fleener
 
Fleener, These last months I have appreciated your input and your insight on what improvements I can make. There is no question about it, I will never get to close to the maximum potential of the gun. To say the least, I'm past my prime, but it is fun trying and without some parameters to strive for, how do you know when are you getting close. That is why I read all about PP'ing and ask all of the questions. I just find it interesting to see what others can do, and your are definitely one of the best when it comes to LR muzzleloading.

After my next trip to the range with this new airmail paper and am changing barrels to shoot with my 18" twist and the Malcolm Scope. I guess if people get tired of me submitting range information and asking questions they may have to move on. It's just all about Long Range Muzzle-loading, maybe to 1000 yards. Love it!!
 
Fleener, Just remember one question I would like to ask. How many warm up shots does a person usually shoot at a match on paper, or even off paper
 
I start shooting with the first bullet, usually.

In some matches you can shoot as many spotters as you like. You can determine when you start shooting for score, and you can often convert the last shot if you like.

At NMLRA for most of the matches I shoot at 500 yards there are no spotter shots allowed. I will shoot for fun in the relay prior to that I plan on shooting for score. Get my sights dialed in. That gets you close. The conditions rarely stay the same between relays. But you should at least be on target.

At the World matches, once you hit paper there is no more coaching allowed. I will usually shoot the first shot in the berm, just because. Not sure that I really need to do that. I think my rifles will shot the first shot just as accurate as the second or third. That does not mean my sight settings are where they need to be on the first shot however.

As long as I am on paper with the first shot, I am good to go, I know I have to crank on my sights to get them in the center. Two days in a row even at the same target, your sight settings will change, it is just part of the game.

I keep a book on my starting sight settings and my ending setting for each match. It can vary quite a bit up and down in the same match.

How do I know when I am there? that is a good question. Not sure I am ever where I want to be. I can shoot great one day and terrible the next. Might be the rifle, might be the shooter..

At Harris this fall I had 6 misses in a row at 1,000 yards. I could not figure what was going on. Ended up changing my nipple. It looked good, but nothing else was coming up as the problem. My next shot was a 8 or higher, cant remember and ended up getting the rest on paper.

There are some days that you are simply in the "zone" and you and your rifle cant do much wrong. Those days are great and you need to embrace them when they come. Then there are days that nothing works. You hope those days dont come very often.

Unfortunately I dont have a range I can shoot at that is past 400 yards for practice. We simply dont have that type of shooting ranges in Iowa. The only practice I get at 500 yards or beyond is at matches. Not necessary the best place to work on load development.

Fleener
 
I have a question for both of you gentleman; do you use a fouling shot? I admire long range shooting, was at Raton a few years back when they shot Black Powder Cartridge at 1000 meters...THAT was awe inspiring! My wife had to drag me away!

Fleener, what kind of rifle and bullet are you shooting, please? I don't want any secrets, just basic knowledge.

There is a 1000 yard range about 45 minutes away, but I've only shot modern rifles there.
 
I have had some of my muzzleloaders that do not require a fouling shot, but these last two fast twist rifles require one and I even put a couple of patches down the barrel to clean after every shot.

I made it to the range this morning with 2 mile an hour wind which is really nothing, but the best I could do was 1 1/2" with the Chase system at 100 yards. I was hoping to get a better group with the airmail, but the best I could do was 2 1/2" group. As fleener said that I should size the load after the paper is on.
 
the smallest sizer I have is 448. I was going to send you some wrapped and sized bullets to try.

Are you sizing now? If so, I can send you some 448 and you can size down to 442.

fleener
 
I mean I am sizing the bullet to .442 before wrapping. I cannot remember what the barrel is, but I think it is right on .45 with .004 riflings. I would have to mic. it to be sure. I am almost thinking I need to increase the size one thousandth.
 
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