Paper patch accuracy

[Zonie]

PP stands for Paper Patch, not plastic patch.

Paper patching was done by many target shooters starting in the mid 1800's.
These very thin paper patches were used on elongated bullets, something else that only target shooters were shooting back then.

Several different methods were used with paper patches.
One of the more common ones was to use a false muzzle on the end of the guns barrel. The paper was cut into narrow strips and placed across the face of the false muzzle.
The elongated bullet was then rammed down thru the muzzle, taking the paper with it.

Another common method was to wrap the bullets with two turns (or more) of paper which was then twisted at the base of the bullet.
The paper was then wetted and when it drys it shrinks to create a tight fitting sleeve.
That sort of PP bullet is shown below. I shoot these in a .40 caliber muzzleloading Schuetzen rifle.

 

[cannonball1]

Do you bench shoot and if you do what kind of groups are you getting at different yardages? Also, what kind of brown paper are you using?

 

[Rockvillerich]

I'm with Zonie on this one. Having shot in competition, and working with gun builders for many years I don't recall ever hearing any big deal about lock contact with the barrel, other than wanting contact to keep powder from entering the lock mortise on a flintlock. Consistency is the key to accuracy, and having the barrel plant its-self on the first shot makes sense, also accounting for the problem not continuing.
Bedding or experimenting with paper shims would be something I'd try. Please let us know what you find.

 

[cannonball1]

I'm with Zonie on this one. Having shot in competition, and working with gun builders for many years I don't recall ever hearing any big deal about lock contact with the barrel, other than wanting contact to keep powder from entering the lock mortise on a flintlock. Consistency is the key to accuracy, and having the barrel plant its-self on the first shot makes sense, also accounting for the problem not continuing.
Bedding or experimenting with paper shims would be something I'd try. Please let us know what you find.

One thing I have noticed with this forum is that it reverts back to the first page. It looks like it may be a little confusing. Rockvillerick, I went back and I'm sure you were responding to what was written on page 1.

 

[user 13896]

Getting back to the original question, Are you casting your own bullets? Home cast or bought, are you testing the hardness of the lead? I shoot a .451 Volunteer (Henry rifling) and anything other than pure lead is too hard. If the bullet is too hard it will not obdurate and catch the rifling. The bullet does not spin, does not stabilize and groups are all over the place. Cheapest way to test the lead is with a 6B drawing pencil. If the 6B pencil will not scratch the lead, it is too hard.

 

[cannonball1]

Getting back to the original question, Are you casting your own bullets? Home cast or bought, are you testing the hardness of the lead? I shoot a .451 Volunteer (Henry rifling) and anything other than pure lead is too hard. If the bullet is too hard it will not obdurate and catch the rifling. The bullet does not spin, does not stabilize and groups are all over the place. Cheapest way to test the lead is with a 6B drawing pencil. If the 6B pencil will not scratch the lead, it is too hard.

I am casting my own. I use pure lead, size, inspect, clean, and weight them. I then discard each end of the weight scale and group them into exact weights.

 

[Zonie]

Do you bench shoot and if you do what kind of groups are you getting at different yardages? Also, what kind of brown paper are you using?

I just shoot for pleasure, not for competition but when I am shooting I rest my elbow on the bench to support the gun.
The paper is from one of my wife's dress patterns. It is .001 thick and it shrinks nicely after it has been dampened. I wet the paper after rolling it onto the bullets.

The bullets are specially designed for paper patching. The have no grease grooves and the base is slightly hollowed to allow the twisted paper to be pushed down into the cavity.

A picture of the Schutezen I built from a Pecatonica River kit a number of years ago:

 

[fleener]

I shoot bullets that are 16 parts lead, one part tin and can get good groups.

Fleener

 

[cannonball1]

Zonie, That is a good looking gun. I have been thinking about a Schutezen for my next gun. The only left handed tang I can find is a Hawken breech and I was thinking about using a 45-70 Green Mountain barrel which is 1.05" at the breech down to .95 at the end. I have a beautiful piece of vivid constant curly maple blank. Just looking for the absolute best barrel.

Any thoughts anyone?

 

[cannonball1]

Fleener, I noticed your lead combo and noticed some of the others go 1 to 20, 1 to 30, and some of the top shooters use pure lead. I also noticed that some of the top shooters use a wad combination. I have tried that with no success, but I have a question: If I was to use a fiber wad(wonder wad) and a hard vegetable wad combination which usually goes on the bullet vs the powder?

 

[fleener]

I put the the vegetable wad on the powder first, then the lubed fiber wad. Most people do not shoot a bullet with as much of a tapered nose as I do, hence the tin.

However, people are starting to shoot the same bullet that I do now. Buffalo Arms will make a mold for anyone, and out of anyone's design.

This is kinda like skinning a cat. Lots of different ways of doing it.

What works for me might work great for a match and the next match I might the worst guy on the line. I usually do not attribute that to the load and rifle however. Usually the conditions dictate that for the top shooters and what I am able to do with the conditions.

In a match which relay you shoot compared to the other relay at the same yardage can and most likely is a huge in determining your score compared to the others. Sometimes you get the break, sometimes you dont.

Fleener

 

[ResearchPress]

The other thing to consider regarding alloys, besides the bullet shape, is the rifling. A post above referred to the Henry rifled Volunteer. This is quite deep rifling when compared with for example Metford and later Rigby rifles. Deeper rifling may suit pure lead, whereas Metford’s was designed for hardened lead cylindrical bullets. Another variable to experiment with...

David

 

[Rockvillerich]

One thing I have noticed with this forum is that it reverts back to the first page. It looks like it may be a little confusing. Rockvillerick, I went back and I'm sure you were responding to what was written on page 1.

Thank you! I'm new to the site, and yes a little confused, still not sure know how to post properly, but at least I know I need to change how I'm doing it.

 

[Ranch 13]

In a match which relay you shoot compared to the other relay at the same yardage can and most likely is a huge in determining your score compared to the others. Sometimes you get the break, sometimes you dont.

You sure nailed that one. A stray wind gust can turn a perfect center shot break into something off the target...
Another thing that may be opening up the groups is fouling build up, if you're not getting the bore wiped consistently that will raise cain with paper patch.

 

[cannonball1]

Hey Cannonball1....I'm Cannonball

I'm new to this forum, and having challenges getting used too it's workings.
I see you refer to PP. Thn plastic patches. So what do you mean by PP? Traditionally this refers to paper patches applied, usually by wrapping around elongated bullets and having NOTHING to do with round balls at all. I have shot and won at 200 yds and suggest that 4-5 inch groups with either is not really good. 12in says something is way wrong. If you're using plastic "patches"/wads. then you're on your own. However, there is no solvent to dissolve them. Only to loosen their grip on the bore (maybe) to enable mechanically removing their melted/stuck-on fouling. Having the first shot way out of the group suggests your "patch" is melting and fouling your bore from the first shot, thereby affecting subsequent shots. I highly & emphatically recommend stopping the plastic wads/patches. If there's some reason you must stick with them, then get used to cleaning between shots. Also look for a suitable lube to apply to the clean bore between shots. Vegetable oil perhaps. And lightly.

I am talking about paper patch elongated bullets and I am using a very thin poly wad (.060) over the powder and they have been shooting straighter than the vegetable .060 wad. I am shooting 5 shot groups, not three shot groups and I am now talking 3 1/2" groups which I would like to see better. I have tried so many combinations that I am cross-eyed and this is the most accurate. I am already cleaning between shots. The weather has turned sour here, so it might be awhile before I get to shoot again - even spring. Anyway I enjoy the input and will bank what I have been told. Might have to build another gun so the winter goes by faster. I've enjoyed the long range shooting so I think it will be another fast-twist barrel.

 

[cannonball1]

The weather warmed up enough to go out and shoot today. This is the 18" twist barrel and I was shooting at 200 yards with poly wad over the powder and a ox-bow dry lubricated wad and the Case PP 540 grain bullet. I shot a couple of cleaner shots, then I shot 5 shots at the first target with a splatter of 5" group. I then shot 5 shot group on the second target. Four were just a hair over a 2" group with the fifth shot making a 3 1/2" group. Wind was no object. Do many of you find a group settling in after several shots? Fleener, the combination seems to help after shooting several shots, but not the first shots - fluke ya think?

 

[Ranch 13]

It's either the shooter getting settled in or possibly, the barrel needs to be warmed up.. At two hundred the first 5 should shoot as well as the last 5.
A 540 gr bullet may be just a touch long for an 18 twist barrel.

 

[cannonball1]

It's either the shooter getting settled in or possibly, the barrel needs to be warmed up.. At two hundred the first 5 should shoot as well as the last 5.
A 540 gr bullet may be just a touch long for an 18 twist barrel.

Ranch, where do you get your information?

 

[Ranch 13]

From burning 1-2 cases of powder in practice and competition every year. From shooting in national competitions using paper patch bullets , going up against shooters who have won multiple championships using grease grooves.
Other than that 50 years of experience.

 

[cannonball1]

Just wondering. Not challenging your experience. The Greenhill and Miller formula suggest a 540 grain bullet with a .442 caliber in a 1 in 18" twist. Also, if my memory isn't failing me the top LRM Shooters are most recently shooting between a 525 to a 550 grain bullet with a 18" twist barrel. I tried some 450 grain bullet with no accuracy.