Paper patch and grease groove bullets

[Idaholewis]

Fleener, That big bullet looks familiar, It was the Accuracy of this Bullet and Olde E that made me want to try the Olde E, If I remember right “52bore” Deer Hunted with it this year?

 

[Idaholewis]

The paper i use, I have 4 Reams of this Old 25% Cotton stuff, it measure 0.002 single

 

[fleener]

Fleener, That big bullet looks familiar, It was the Accuracy of this Bullet and Olde E that made me want to try the Olde E, If I remember right “52bore” Deer Hunted with it this year?

He did shoot a deer with it this year. He videoed the shot. The deer simply ran away fast and died off screen. The deer I shot with my .72 cal round ball, was knock over, got up and ran 50 yards.

Fleener

 

[cannonball1]

Fleener, Brent,
Assuming you got the answer for the glue and process on my Post 40?

 

[fleener]

How long do you have to leave them in the gluing stub to dry?

Fleener

 

[Zonie]

I guess I'll jump in because the title of this topic is "Paper patch and grease grooves Bullets" and I'm trying to figure out why anyone would use a grease groove bullet unless that was the only kind they had on hand.

It is the patch that is in contact with the bore so IMO, the important thing to lubricate is the outside of the paper patch.

I once tried lubricating the paper just after I finished wrapping some bullets.
The next day when I got to the shooting range I tried to load one of them.

The lubricated paper tore and wadded up on the muzzles crown as I tried to load it. I tried several others and they too wadded up and tore.
It seems the paper that I'm using soaks up the grease and becomes thicker making the patched bullet larger than the bore. The paper also seems to loose all of its strength.

Using this knowledge, I went back to lubricating the patch just before I load the bullet. Doing that, the paper doesn't wad up or rip or tare.

Based on this I think if someone uses a grease grooved bullet and doesn't put any grease in the grooves, the paper patched bullet should work just fine.
If the person put grease in the grooves before wrapping the paper onto the bullet, by the time he/she gets to the range the paper will have softened and expanded and that would result in the same situation I had.

I'm sure most of you have seen the bullets I use but for those who haven't here's a photo of them.

As you can see, these bullets are made for paper patching. They have no grease grooves and they have a hollow base to fold the paper into.

Wrapped, they measure .399" in diameter. .001 smaller than the bore on my muzzleloading Schuetzen.

I'm using dress pattern paper, applied wet. When it dries it shrinks to a skin tight fit on the bullet. No glue is required.

 

[Idaholewis]

That is a good looking Bullet Zonie!! Idahoron Told me about using Chapstick on the patch at one time just before he loaded. All of my Patching is done dry, and Shot Dry, i have Several Grease Groove bullets of Correct PP Diameter that i had made for it, No Lube of any kind is used

 

[Meriwether]

Just a note. If there are issues from other forums, leave them when you log in. We do not need imported issues. Please post your information or not, but leave the dirt outside the door.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Idahoron Told me about using Chapstick on the patch at one time just before he loaded.

I did tell you that. One guy I was helping to get his muzzleloader shooting was having trouble with my bullets. He came over to shoot. His gun had a blued Green Mountain barrel. It was a bit on the rough side. I never looked into it with my endoscope but you could feel it was rough. The barrel was rough enough that I thought it was damaging the paper. So I used chapstick as lube on the outside of the paper. That gun shot fine after that. When he shot it he just used chapstick.
This guy failed to clean his gun and the barrel was lost. He did the same thing to several more rifles. I sold him a rifle last fall. It was sighted in and ready to go. He shot it several times and killed a deer with it. As of the end of December he had not cleaned the gun. I got really mad at him and I think he did clean it but he didn't want to.

 

[Idaholewis]

I did tell you that. One guy I was helping to get his muzzleloader shooting was having trouble with my bullets. He came over to shoot. His gun had a blued Green Mountain barrel. It was a bit on the rough side. I never looked into it with my endoscope but you could feel it was rough. The barrel was rough enough that I thought it was damaging the paper. So I used chapstick as lube on the outside of the paper. That gun shot fine after that. When he shot it he just used chapstick.
This guy failed to clean his gun and the barrel was lost. He did the same thing to several more rifles. I sold him a rifle last fall. It was sighted in and ready to go. He shot it several times and killed a deer with it. As of the end of December he had not cleaned the gun. I got really mad at him and I think he did clean it but he didn't want to.

I hear ya Ron! I have always said, these Poor Ole Muzzleloaders have a REALLY hard time finding a Good Home!

 

[fleener]

I dont use any lube on my PP, they are shot dry.

I do like GG depending on the rifle.

Fleener

 

[Idaholewis]

I dont use any lube on my PP, they are shot dry.

I do like GG depending on the rifle.

Fleener

I shoot Both, Paper Patch is actually what got me in to this Hobby, I watched a Video of Idahoron Shooting 300 Yards, And I had to do it! While I REALLY enjoy Shooting my Numerous Paper Patch bullets on Target, that is kinda where they stay for me, My Shooting bench, A controlled environment where i can take the time to Swab Good between shots, I have hunted with a PP Bullet and Filled my Tag the Same Day, But i Prefer my Grease Groove bullets for Hunting, and a Lot of Target as well. I actually shoot More GG These days than PP, But I THOROUGHLY enjoy both of them!

 

[Idaho Ron]

This is the bullet I have had tons of luck with. This is my Lee 500 S&W bullet. Hardened to about 6 to 7 BHN

This is the bullet that I use the most in my 45. This is my RCBS 11mm rifle bullet. Hardened to about 8 to 8.5 BHN.

 

[Idaholewis]

This is the bullet I have had tons of luck with. This is my Lee 500 S&W bullet. Hardened to about 6 to 7 BHN

This is the bullet that I use the most in my 45. This is my RCBS 11mm rifle bullet. Hardened to about 8 to 8.5 BHN.

Them 2 Bullets have sure been Good to ya Ron!!

 

[cannonball1]

Fleener, I use very little glue, just a little in overlapped center as the photo shows. When I turn it over and flatten out out on a flat glass like surface it holds it shape almost immediately. I have not timed it for a total dry because I put it in the organizer upside down and move on to the next one. By the time two or three more are done, the first one is dry. One tip that I am doing now is I have short dowel I push into the jig to the base of the bullet and twist making all of the fold overs going in one direction. I am not fast at double wrap and I can make these single wrap much faster. I would bet discarded short barrel ends could be found from barrel makers or the caliber you are looking for could be drilled into 1 1/2" steel or even hardwood. Most who use the Chase system just fold the paper over when loading. It just didn't work for me as well as this jig. All pre-done while watching westerns on TV and with the glue they stick fast at the base. I might mention I use a .060 plastic over-powder wad.

p.s. I tried without the glue and they shot well, but every once in a while I would get a flyer of which I rarely get with the glued ones. I'm sure the un-glued ones had some slipping even though the plastic wad was tight against the folded part of the paper.

 

[cannonball1]

Just a thought. Would a bullet sizer work.

 

[Brent]

Cannonball1, thanks for those photos. I think some hacked off .45-70 cases would work for holding the bullets just as well, especially if they have been FL sized.

For lube, like Chapstick, Burt's Bee Balm, etc, you can also use any blackpowder bullet lube that does turn the paper translucent. One common example is SPG. Use a very small amount - Paul Matthews would recommend about as much lube as the head of a small paper match (back in the day when paper matchbooks were everywhere). Even that may be more than necessary. The problem with using a lube like this not softening the Paper, that doesn't happen with the right lube, but rather picking up grit and lint or whatever is nearby your loading station, pockets or whatever.

To test a possible paper lube, put a bit of it on your patching paper and leave it on the kitchen counter overnight. If there is a grease spot in the morning - it's not going to work. Examples of nonuseable bullet lubes include Oxyoke stuff. I forget what it is called. Smells "minty". Smokeless powder lubes are also out, but for other reasons.

Another paper to try that is "prelubed" is cooking parchment paper. This is incredibly tough stuff, usually spot on for thickness (adding 0.007-0.008" to the diameter of the bullet), all but totally impervious to moisture of any kind. This has obvious application to hunting in particular. The paper is impregnated with silicone or something that is nonstick. It is pretty slick and works very well. It leaves no residue.

 

[Brent]

Idahoron, Zonie and some of the others - you guys wrap your bullets very far forward, way past the ogive. Why? On the swaged bullets with the semi-wadcutter like shoulder, I only wrap to the shoulder, not up the nose.

 

[Idaholewis]

Recovered papers, they end up 10-15 Yards out, or there close abouts. Easily Found, unless it’s Windy

 

[Idaho Ron]

Idahoron, Zonie and some of the others - you guys wrap your bullets very far forward, way past the ogive. Why? On the swaged bullets with the semi-wadcutter like shoulder, I only wrap to the shoulder, not up the nose.

For me it is all about protecting the bullet, and the barrel. I don't have to wonder if it's far enough. It's far enough!