• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Parker Hale vs Pedersoli

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Dude wrote this -
If you shoot a burglar does that count as proof of usage? :doh:

IF you unlocked your gun safe, loaded up your muzzleloader and shot the burglar, that would be construed as murder. Armed burglary here in UK, regardless of what you might have read, is incredibly uncommon, and might happen if you had something worth taking the risk for. Most people I know, me included, have nothing that would persuade a burglar to pay a visit.

However, defending yourself if you are in fear of your life, or to prevent harm to your family, is allowed, again, no matter what you have read, heard or been told. Many cases result in the death or serious injury of the burglar, and the victim usually walks free.


Remind me never to move to the UK!

Okay, never move to the UK.

You said there is no need for progressive rifling with modern rifling. Why is that?

No modern gun needs progressive rifling - FMJ bullet just don't work like that.

I read through W.S. Curtis' write up on Managing the Enfield and have a few questions for you. It was a good read!

Bill Curtis, with whom I had many a fascinating chat, was THE man as far as the Crimean War was concerned, but was, in fact, an all-round encyclopedia of firearms information. A descendant of the Curtis & Harvey gunpowder millers, he will be very much missed.

You have mentioned putting a copper washer under the nipple. Curtis recommends using teflon tape on the threads. Are you using the washer instead of the teflon?

I use both. I also remove the nipple to clean up, although some here view that as errant sacrilege of the highest order, like stomping on puppies.

Do you use a flash pan under the nipple?

Nope. It's not prototypical, although that's as far as I go with the HC business - to me it just looks wrong, like putting a Harris bipod on a P53. I do, however, have a confession to make. I protect the wood and metal surface around the bolster with a few dabs of the E45 skin cream cream I mentioned in another thread. It works, AND it's good for the hands, too. :)

And one last question - what is the steel ramrod good for besides stiffening the stock? The previous owner of my gun tried using it as a cleaning rod, but the sharp edges of the slot cut the rag. I've since de-burred the thing, but think it could still slice a bit of cloth pretty easily.

I leave my ramrods safely in the channel, and use a suitable range rod for all else. I use a set of high-quality jags - mine are button-style, like those used by Mike beliveau - they work well for me, and I effectively clean the barrel for every shot. I DO have a correct Whitworth-style hexagonal ramrod for the Whitworth though - about $50 from Peter Dyson here in UK. Sadly it won't fold for ease of shipping. :( The very best such ramrod I ever had had a series of hexagonal washers that were captive but free to rotate very slightly around the rod per se. In that way it actually conformed to the helix of the rifling as it went down, and back up. Needless to say, I no longer own it, but some thieving ******d does. I wish him a case of violent diarrhea combined with uncontrollable sneezing for ever.
 
Last edited:
Dude wrote -

I didn't know that about unused guns in the UK. That raises many questions such as where the H**L did that law come from?

In the Firearms Act of 1967 etc you are expected to show regular use of the firearm for which you have applied and been given authorisation to Acquire and Possess on your Firearm Certificate [FAC].

What's the sanity in that?

I never wrote it was sane, but it IS in the Law.

How can they take your gun?

The authorisation to Acquire and Possess is a certificate, that certifies that you are a fit person to blah blah blah. If you are not using the gun for any reason, then you can, in law, have no reason to possess it, and it can be struck off your Firearms Certificate, or, more likely, your firearms certificate can be revoked and your firearms subject to seizure, since without said certificate you are illegally in possession of Section 1 firearm. This, in UK Common Law, is an absolute offence - IOW, you either have or have not a gun in your possession. There is no defence is you have no FAC but still have the gun - you ARE guilty.

How do they keep track? and Who are they?

Every time a target shooter goes to the range they are required to fill out the attendance register part 1 - the date of attendance like a school register. Part 2 details the gun you are shooting by calibre and serial number on that occasion. Because I have a larger number of guns than most, I have a page detailing my guns, with a basic number 1 through XX. So I I just write down gun #x. This is a legal requirement from the UK Home Office, and not something made up just to p*** people off. I means that 'they', the FAC-issuing authority - the county Police via their Firearms & Explosives Licensing Department can, at any time ask to see the record of attendance on the range. This would obviously give details not only of the shooters there on any given day, but what they were shooting as well, although not the amount of ammunition they shot.

In this way they can keep track of the number of times that you shoot any particular firearm in your possession.


This must have come from a time in the long distant past when guns were scarce. I sure can't fathom enforcing it now.

Nope. The compulsory registration of date and time of shooting activity, along with the details of the gun that you are shooting, is very recent - I'm not sure how new, but probably less than ten years old.

How often do you have to shoot it to keep them from confiscating it?

No idea what goes on in their minds, but I make it a point of shooting everything I have at least two or three times a year - that keeps me busy.

Do you have to log into a shooting range and log in the gun's serial number to prove ownership?

That's two questions, part one of which I have answered above. It is NOT proof of ownership, nor are you required to prove ownership - if the gun is on YOUR FAC then YOU are the registered owner-keeper. In any event, all your guns are already registered in the National firearms Register. Unlike the US of A, we can't just sell our guns when we feel like it to any TDH who wants to buy it.

This is one of the goofiest things I've ever heard!

Quite.

My last ancestor to leave Great Britain for the Colonies (aka America) did so in 1720. I’m sure glad he caught that boat.
 
As I understand it, the Volunteer was sort of a civilian version created in 1856 that was shorter (2 band) and came in either .451 or .58. It's called the Volunteer because they were used by the Volunteer Militia. I'm guessing the civilian versions were shorter for two reasons - no bayonet, and the military rifles had to be long enough for the second rank to project past the first rank in the firing line.

The Volunteer Movement that was established in 1859 led to the formation of the National Rifle Association later that year. In the earliest period Volunteers equipped themselves, however their rifle had to be of the same bore as that used by the Regular Army (ie. .577) and accept Government caps. In due course the arm of issue for the Volunteers was the .577 Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket (the three band Enfield).

The aims of the NRA were "the encouragement of Volunteer Rifle Corps and the promotion of rifle shooting throughout Great Britain." To this they held the first annual rifle meeting in Wimbledon Common in 1860. Volunteers competed amongst them selves with their .577 government bore rifles. There were however ‘all-comers’ matches generally open to Any Rifle. Derived from work by Joseph Whitworth, several gun makers were making .45 calibre rifles, initially still of military style, that were used in competition out to 1000 yards. Those Volunteers who could afford one of these small-bore rifles would compete alongside all-comers.

Parker-Hale made two such military match rifles, the Whitworth with the famous hexagonal rifling, and the Volunteer with Rigby and later on Henry rifling. Neither of these .45 bore rifles were arms issued to the Rifle Volunteer Corps - Parker-Hale just used Volunteer as a marketing name for the model.

Yes, I pretty much figured the Navy Arms musketoon had no connection to PH since it's got Italian proof marks and no mention of PH.

c1990 Parker-Hale sold part of its business including its percussion rifle production section to Navy Arms of New Jersey, USA. By early 1993 news reports appeared that Navy Arms were starting production on the Navy 1858 rifle.

David
 
Well its odd that its sharp the slot is also used to screw into a bullet if required the rifle had a tool with a worm, a hole starter, & a screw to turn into the bullet and hollows stem held oil in it some had a spring cramp for Sargeant's all patterns had screw driver built in .. I used a thin formed copper flash shield but I don't think they where issue but a snap cap nipple protecter chain held & a tompion muzzle plug where .
Rudyard
 
I'm still confused about the progressive rifling. I've had the idea the rifling is deeper at the breech - true? ..... .... .. What's the story and why is this special?

Like so much of the period, progressive depth rifling had its origins in France. When they were seeking to convert their existing smooth-bore muskets into rifles, they hit upon the expedient of reducing the depth of the rifling towards the muzzle to avoid cutting away the metal at its thinnest part. This they found kept the bullet tight as it left the barrel. I think it also helps with fouling control.

Parker-Hale barrels were cold forged. Parker-Hale advertising from 1974 with respect to the P.61 says "5 grooved, cold forged barrel of best steel, original progressive depth rifling..." and for the P.53 says "the 3 groove barrels are rifled by the cold forging method." 1977 advertising for the Volunteer with Rigby rifling also refers to "cold forging method to produce a mirror smooth and hardened finish". The first cold forge hammering machine P-H had was an old German machine that hammed the barrels vertically; a new machine which hammed the barrels horizontally was designed in-house.

David
 
Thanks for that information, Mr Minshall - now I have the skinny I can change my notes. I was told about the method I wrote about when I went to the factory in Golden hillock road to collect ten unproofed and unbreeched barrels for a gentleman over near me in Christchurch who built rifles using P-H-supplied barrels.

I'm still trying to get my head around a forming mandrel the length of a barrel - and tapered. I'm familiar with regular-style hammer forging, having seen it in action at the SAKO factory; the mandrel used to make parallel-sided rifling is only about 12 -15cm long.

The original barrels might just have been made by the method I described earlier, since hammer-forging is a comparatively new technology in rifling.
 
I have an original Birmingham Parker Hale musketoon and currently all parts supplies are gone. According to what I Can come up with from this forum and the internet, only original Birmingham Parker Hale parts are interchangeable with each other. None of the other manufacturer’s part are interchangeable with the Birmingham guns. I have also searched for the original locks from the London Armory where they were first produced to no avail. So while this is a great gun just know parts are very difficult if not impossible to come by. If anyone knows of someone who can make these parts , I would truly like to hear from them.
 
I have also searched for the original locks from the London Armory where they were first produced to no avail.
The Enfield family of longarms were first produced at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield. They were also made at the the privately owned London Arms Company, and their machine made arms were interchangeable with those machine made at Enfield, all being made to a Government Pattern. Parker-Hale had the use of a set of original inspection gauges from which to get their reproductions dimensionally correct to match the originals. Other manufactures dimensions may vary from the originals and use metric threads.

For parts (in the UK) see Peter Dyson > Enfield Rifle parts.

David
 
The Naval 2-band short rifle is by all accounts, THE shooter, due to it's thicker barrel, so I'm told.

Yes, the barrel harmonics are better because the 2 Band has the thicker barrel.

However, that's not the only reason.

I was extremely fortunate to buy a used PH Birmingham Naval Rifle in 1980 from a fellow reenactor who wanted to buy a 3 band for reenacting. (Reenactors generally didn't/don't like 2 Banders, because they don't want to put a 2 band in the rear rank when firing blanks.) The stock and brass were dinged up a good bit, but the barrel and lock were in great shape.

My Father raised me to shoot mainly off hand, because he correctly believed anyone who could shoot off hand (standing) well was a better hunter and could then shoot other positions better, even though I only got a little formal target shooting in Boy Scout Camp only. The U.S. Marine Corps was Super Serious about teaching off hand shooting, so that developed my skills even more.

Most of the North South Skirmish Association Matches were also mainly offhand. So for YEARS I strongly suggested those shooters buy the 2 Band INSTEAD of the 3 Band Enfields.

This because with the shorter and thicker barrel, the 2 Band Rifles are MUCH easier to shoot well offhand, because they balance better AND the wind doesn't affect them as much as the longer 3 Band Rifles. A fair crosswind comes up and the 3 band rifles easily get blown off target while it is much easier to hold the rifle on target in the wind with the 2 Band Rifle.

Gus
 
Last edited:
I was extremely fortunate to buy a used PH Birmingham Naval Rifle in 1980 from a fellow reenactor who wanted to buy a 3 band for reenacting.

Serial number please, if you would be so kind. Mr Minshall here, of research Press, is compiling a list of serial numbers. Use the PM if you wish.
 
That bears out our Sheffield branch MLAGB experience that the two band was the best option in PH Enfield's . I cant understand Why the spare parts are needed though I had a three band PH that had faults in the lock. Good on Mr Minshall & Parker Hale But they should have made the Baker Rifles as well but that was all Pre' Sharpe's Series' .
Regards Rudyard
 
Back
Top