Parker Hale Whitworth rifle

[TFoley]

Hmmmmm. Certainly heard of a swaging die like this, but never seen one. I used to have an old-style 'pound' swage for making a .440" ball.

I currently shoot the 535gr Lyman bullet cast from the mould that came with the rifle, lubricating it with a 50/50 mix of beeswax and neet's foot oil. My depleting collection of hexagonal bullets is something I usually save for use on demonstration guest days, like the one coming this sunday

Have to say that although I'm serious about shooting it when I'm shooting it, I have to document that I also shoot all my other guns, too, so the Whitworth doesn't get out as much as I'd like...

tac

 

[BillinOregon]

Paul, that two-part hex die for swaging cast cylindrical bullets used to be available from Navy Arms when they still offered Whitworths years ago. It worked OK, but I was never able to get a perfect hex even with the bench vise. The bullets shot well, though.

 

[ozark57]

Paul, I see Dixe sells such a swaging die. They also sell hex bullets. Earlier in this thread some noted that these bullets were oversize and therefor useless. I don't have a problem with spending the $140.00 on the die from Dixie if I know I can get a useable bullet out of it. Anyone out there have any experiance with tis die?

 

[ResearchPress]

Have a look at this thread from the Civil War section: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/212346

There's quite a bit about Whitworth in historical context and modern shooting. If you page/scroll through far enough you'll find some pics of various bullets that I posted.

David

 

[broadarrow]

Paul, I see Dixe sells such a swaging die. They also sell hex bullets. Earlier in this thread some noted that these bullets were oversize and therefor useless. I don't have a problem with spending the $140.00 on the die from Dixie if I know I can get a useable bullet out of it. Anyone out there have any experiance with tis die?

Hi Ozark57,
this is my Dixie swaging die pictured below

it produces flats on a cylindrical projectile that are usable in my Euroarms which has the tighter bore of my two Whitworths it leaves a set of flats roughly 2mm wide and .447cal in diameter which is smaller in diameter than the Dixie cast Whitworth projectiles. All you do is place the cylindrical projectile between the two halves and then close it up in a vise. When I stated that the Dixie cast Whitworth bullets were oversize and therefore I cannot use them I should have covered that with "in my rifles" they did not come even close to fitting my rifle but that is not to say they would not fit other rifles and we should remember we are lucky to have suppliers who support our sport/hobby by putting their hand in their pocket to manufacture and stock items like these for us, Regards, Peter B.

 

[pchwcf50110]

this summer i started my own personal R&D on building a hexagon bullet mould for my two Whitworths. i have completed one prototype and am currently working on the second. the first was a hex mould with a thick skirt hollow base, round nose that weighed 510grs. they shot really well, better than anything i have ever used. but i had never used anything but cylindrical bullets before. because i find paper patching annoying the first mould was casting .448" and the bullet body was smeared lightly with lube. but i would prefer grease grooves on the bullet so i went back to the drawing board. the second prototype i am working on now will be a hex mould with grease grooves, hollow base with thick skirt, with a LFN nose. i am an amateur machinest and this is very difficult to build. i already started over as i made a mistake and ruined the first rendition of the second prototype. so i guess it was the prototype's prototype. i have two whitworths, one a PH and a Euro arms. they have different barrel measurements the PH being .450" and the Euro .448" so i have used the smaller diameter. i have a multi lifetime supply of wheel weights and i would prefer to use them for target shooting as they work as good as pure lead. but when cast from WW out of the first proto mould they come out oversized so i can only shoot them in the PH rifle. when i finish the second hex/grease groove mould and after testing it shoots well, i will take the mould to my friend who has a machine shop and have him do the CNC programing to duplicate my, compared to his, rough machine work. with the CNC he should be able to alter the diameters of the flats and corners much easier than me working on my manual mill and lathe. the work on the second prototype has kind of ground to a halt because i've been bowhunting alot lately.

 

[ozark57]

Are you making a 3 piece mold? I was considering making one by broaching simular to rifling a barrel.It will be difficult to profile mill the I.D. of the mold because of the twist. My 4 axis machine could possibly do it,but not without great difficulty. Let me know how you come out.

 

[TFoley]

...
it produces flats on a cylindrical projectile that are usable in my Euroarms which has the tighter bore of my two Whitworths it leaves a set of flats roughly 2mm wide and .447cal in diameter which is smaller in diameter than the Dixie cast Whitworth projectiles. All you do is place the cylindrical projectile between the two halves and then close it up in a vise. Peter B.

Sir, can you show us a before and after view, please?

taci

 

[broadarrow]

Hi Tac, I will do that A.S.A.P. and can you do me a favour and post a photo and all of the specs on the Polisar Whitworth bullet ? Regards, Peter B.

 

[BillinOregon]

451: If you get that second prototype dialed in and a CNC program written for it, I suspect you will have a very popular product for other Whitworth shooters! Good on ya!

 

[TFoley]

Hi Tac, I will do that A.S.A.P. and can you do me a favour and post a photo and all of the specs on the Polisar Whitworth bullet ? Regards, Peter B.

Mr B - sorry, I can't post images, but if you email me via the PM I'll be able to send you some pics that way.

Here are the dimensions for the Polisar flat-base bullet -

Length - 35,93mm/1,414"

Weight - 605gr

Across flats - 11,1mm/0,438"

Length to commencement of ogive - 28,85mm/1,135"

As I noted - Mr Corbin still has a full set of swaging dies and wishes to sell them - sadly, the price is not economically viable for me, representing, as it does, a cost something more than three times what I paid for the rifle in the fust place, but you rich Australians would doubtless find it in your pocket change. :wink:

tac

 

[pchwcf50110]

Are you making a 3 piece mold? I was considering making one by broaching simular to rifling a barrel.It will be difficult to profile mill the I.D. of the mold because of the twist. My 4 axis machine could possibly do it,but not without great difficulty. Let me know how you come out.

ozark57, yes the hollow base version will have to be a three piece. it shouldn't be a problem to leave that part out and also make a standard two piece mould with flat base after the CNC program is written. i also would like the weight to be about 490-510 grs. with the hollow base and grease grooves. i am guessing 550-570grs. with a flat base. you touched on the crux of the biscuit when it comes to machining the hex sides with the twist. that is why i had to start over on the second prototype. ooops! it's easy to make a miscalculation. once the program is written i will also like to make a traditional round nose profile like the originals i've seen. another idea is to substitute tool steel for alluminum and cut the profile (once again, after the program is written) into a swedge die similar to the Dixie Gun Works model. it shouldn't be hard to swedge a bullet that drops at .450" down to .448" since you will be working on a formed bullet from the start. this will help with the various differences in bore diameters. the DGW swedge i measured is .4495" across the flats which after bullet spring back drops a .450+" bullet. i have measure three repro whitworths and that will only fit one of them. BillinOregon, i don't know if others will be interested. i can't even imagine what this would cost if i had to pay for anything. even the alluminum i use is scrap from my friend's machine shop. :wink: lots of ideas floating around.

 

[ozark57]

If you can machine the profile into a mold cavity then a reverse of that program will machine a EDM electrode. Make your swaging die out of A2 or D2 and burn the cavity with a ram type EDM.
Sorry for the boring machine shop stuff, but this is of interest to us hex bullet shooters.

 

[TFoley]

...a swedge die...

Sir, when you write 'swedge', do you mean 'swage'?

tac

 

[paulab]

Ozark....My buddy got the die from Dixie Gun Works. The bullets fit HIS rifle. Slid down the bore easily [after cleaning]. Sorry I don't know the diameter of the finished bullet or his actual bore diameter. He told me in his e-mail that he got about the same accuracy using round bullets. Hope this helps. Paul

 

[pchwcf50110]

Tac, i spelled it wrong. i knew it didn't look right when i typed it and i even looked in the Webster's college dictionary after i posted. the word isn't in the book so i left it.

 

[ResearchPress]

I think 'swedge' and 'swage' are interchangeable terms, rather than an incorrect spelling.

'Swedge' is used in Russell's 'Hand Book of Rifle Shooting' (1869).

David

 

[paulvallandigham]

"SWEDGE:" is an archaic spelling- MISSPELLING?" of the word, Swage. This is derived from the ages old metal forming block used by blacksmiths to form metal into various shapes- called a "SWAGE BLOCK".

The proper spelling today is " SWAGE"( die), or (block), or ( press).

Having said all that, spelling is not a high priority with anyone other than lawyers, these days, so don't get your shorts in a knot over this! :blah: :rotf: :hatsoff:

 

[ozark57]

Swage it must be! What size slug do start with?

 

[broadarrow]

Swage it must be! What size slug do start with?

Hi Ozark, I started with a .457/.459 diameter projectile to swage the flats onto and it easily fits into the die and closes no problem at all, and when finished measures .447cal over the flats and easily fits both of my rifles although a little more snug in the Euroarms. I will post some before and after swaging photos on the weekend when I get the chance, Regards, Peter B.