Parker Hale Whitworth rifle

[ozark57]

I got interested in the legends over the Whitworth rifle that I began looking for one. Found one. An older Parker Hale.
Now I need to get started. My goal is to test the rifle out to 1000 yards ( I have a range )to personaly try to duplicate some of the shots of legend. I have 2 Lyman molds, a .45 FN 450 gr. and a .45 FN 475 gr. I do not have a hex mold or swaging tool. I am looking for load info, what works and what does not, hex?, paper patch? What kind of sights the CSA may have used. Scope? Gonna be a lot to learn on this one!

 

[ResearchPress]

Long range muzzle loading is a challenging and fun sport. We had a match at 600 yards for Whitworths here in the UK a week ago. Nice to see a good selection of originals, custom built rifles and P-Hs on the range.

I've fired Whitworth rifle to 1000 yards with hex bullets, and others have used cylindical with good results too. The bullets used by those I know who shoot Whitworth are paper patched, and fired with 85-100 grain charges dependng on shooter. You'll need a hex wad cutter.

If you are looking at replicating Civil War shooting you may also need to research cartridges. My primary interest is target shooting and associated history rather than Civil War so advice from others as to what was used by the sharpshooters may help. I do however have a lot of information on long range shooting with the Whitworth in British military trials and in target shooting competition.

There were a couple of original Whitworth match rifles in use at the World Long Range Championships at Camp Butner, North Carolina, last month.

David

 

[ozark57]

What kind of sights are you using for your long range shooting in the UK? I am looking for period correct target sights or possibly a scope.In descriptions of the guns that were in use by the CSA it is said that "various types" of sights were used on the Whitworth. I shoot modern guns long range. The Whitworth will, I am sure, present a challenge. I can shoot up to 1000 yards on the farm, so everyday practice is possible.
Does anyone have a ballistic chart for the Whitworth?

 

[grey8833]

Ozark:

David is being modest. Check out his other hangout for more long range muzzleloading info:
http://www.lrml.org/

The whole precision shooting at extended ranges is a hoot. I looked at period scopes, but good ones get real expensive. Period tang and front globe sithts are not cheap either. However, you would be amazed at how accurate those old systems are.

Mike F

Mike F.

 

[ozark57]

Do you have any recomendations on tang sights? My eyes don't do well with open sights at long range. The period scope had a short eye relief,as I understand, and as a personal recipiant of the "mark of the magnum" I am a little leary of a gun firing a 450 gr. bullet with 90gr. of bp.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Merit Optics Corporation sells an adjustable peep sight, that has a suction cup on it, to stick on shooting glasses. For those who have difficulty focusing on their front sights, this can be a very useful tool.

Peep sights run from a couple of hundred dollars to well over 1,000 dollars, depending on whose you buy. The heavy Breechloading rifles, like the Ballard, and Sharps, are often fitted with tall Tang Peep sights to shoot out to 1,000 yards. I see the sights advertised in the Single Shot Exchange, and I am sure they are also offered by some of the suppliers whose links appear under the Member resources section on this forum. Go to the top of the Index page to find the resources, then click on "Links" to see a list of suppliers.

These sights are less commonly used in MLing rifles, but you do see them at the Slug Gun Range at Friendship, and Now at the Long range, cartridge events held at a Fort range some miles west of Friendship( I have not been there, yet.)

 

[grey8833]

Ozark:
Be not afraid, my gun fires a 45 cal, 535 grain grease groove bullet :shocked2: - which is common for these types of guns. While a soule sight is not technically PC for these guns, I used one anyway (the windage adjustment on a soule is on the back sight, the period rifles had the wind adjustment on the front sight). Lee Shaver makes a nice set in both less expensive and expensive versions of the soule sight (these type of sights are not cheap, but nether are the period scopes).

A Whitworth could use a scope, as civil war pictures show scopes being used, but beware of the one you see commonly (cheaper one - I forget the brand) the scope is noted as fine, with the mounting hardware being weak. Its the one listed on Optics Planet. Get a gunsmith to mount it with the extra anti recoil mount and I have heard it can work fine. Others may want to comment since I went for the tang and globe.

Mike F

 

[ResearchPress]

What kind of sights are you using for your long range shooting in the UK?

Aperture sights with vernier scales were widley used in the 1860/70s in the UK for target shooting. Most commonly these had elevation adjustment on the rearsight and windage adjustment on the foresight. The foresight may also be fitted with a spirit level.

Below is a picture of sights on an original Metford rifle by Gibbs of Bristol (c1870).

Similar would be found on Whitworth match rifles.

Soule type sights have the advantage that elevation and windage are to hand at the rearsight, but these are not period correct to the Whitworth (they weren't patented until 1888/89; well into the black powder breech loading era). They would not be appropriate if you are seeking to replicate the equipment available to the Civil War marksman.

David

 

[paulab]

Ozark.... Buffalo Arms lists all kinds of sights. while most of them wont be period correct on your Whitworth, they Will work admirably for the job intended. Make sure that the rear sight BASE fits your tang. Getting a rear tang sight with windage will make life much simpler for you. Take Mike's advice and use 500+ grain bullets. Lighter ones just don't make the grade at long range. BIG IS GOOD! Recoil can be managed. Montana Vintage Arms sells the scope you want. They come in 3 different lengths and once again, they might not be period correct, but a better scope and mounts can't be had. I've used mine out to 1000 yds. David is the man to listen to for advice on the Whitworth. He's been there and done it. Please keep us up to date on your trials with your new toy. cheers paul

 

[ozark57]

I received the PH Whitworth rifle yesterday and it is in perfect condition. I received two Lyman molds with it one a 450gr. and one a 475gr. I see Dixie has the hex bullets and I am considering ordering up 50 of them. I have never shot paper patched bullets and am really not sure how this is to work. What kind of paper? How to apply? For the non-hex bullets should I use a soft lead as I do with Minie Balls so that they will form to the rifling? Who sells a hex wad cutter?

 

[broadarrow]

Hi Ozark57, here http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2epeterdyson%2eco%2euk%2facatalog%2f&WD=cutter%20hex%20wad&SHOP=%20&PN=WHITWORTH_RIFLE__parts_and_accessories%2ehtml%23aS375#aS375 is a link to the retailer who sells the hexagonal wad cutters, they provide a good reliable service in my experience. As to paper patching material here http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,2098.html is what I use as there is no supply of a similar product here in Australia. As to the Dixie hex bullets, I purchased a box of them and they were way oversize for either of my Whitworth rifles the well used Parker-Hale and the brand new Euroarms, but they may fit rifles other than my two, Regards, Peter B.

 

[ozark57]

Thank You Broadarrow, This answers a couple of my questions. Do you shoot mostly hex bullets?

 

[broadarrow]

Hi Ozark57, yes I mostly do shoot hexagonal form projectiles, but I do occasionally work with load combinations using cylindrical projectiles for product development purposes. For me part of the point of having a Whitworth rifle is to use hexagonal form projectiles otherwise it is a good deal easier to go with conventional type rifling profiles and cylindrical projectiles. Another thing I would like to draw your attention to if you are going to do a lot of shooting with your Whitworth rifle is the fire erosion of the nipple, if you are going to shoot finer granulation 3FFFG powder loads the nipples will thrash out very quickly this can be reduced by using coarser granulation 1FG or 2FFG powder loads which is recommended by Parker-Hale in their instructions for the Whitworth rifle or by fitting one of the platinum lined nipples sold by either Peter Dyson & Son Ltd. or J. Cunard & Co. as the Whitworth is particularly hard on its nipples and fitting one of these will ensure that you get more consistent results for longer and they take longer to fire erode than the regular nipples that do not have the platinum insert, I have found that they are more cost effective in the long run.

I hope this helps your cause, keep us informed on your progress, Regards, Peter B.

 

[paulab]

Broadarrow speaks the truth! Don't leave home without a platinum lined nipple. Expensive but worth every penny. cheers Paul

 

[TFoley]

What kind of sights are you using for your long range shooting in the UK? I am looking for period correct target sights or possibly a scope.In descriptions of the guns that were in use by the CSA it is said that "various types" of sights were used on the Whitworth. I shoot modern guns long range. The Whitworth will, I am sure, present a challenge. I can shoot up to 1000 yards on the farm, so everyday practice is possible.
Does anyone have a ballistic chart for the Whitworth?

Hi there - due to the fact that most Whitworth shooters, Mr Minshall and me included, shoot a range of different bullets - both cylindrical and hexagonal - in our Whitworths, and with different charges too, establishing a ballistics chart is very difficult without first chronographing your particular load and using the Sierra ballistics programme, like John gross did in his excellent article in the April 2009 'The Gun report' magazine.

I got ahold of a brand-new back copy from the publishers, who sent it to me here in UK for a small consideration, as I won't be back in Oregon until the spring.

It is well worth getting this issue, as he debunks many of the myths surrounding this famous arm, as well as providing a ballistic chart for a 530gr bullet with a m/v of 1300 fps.

tac, back

 

[ozark57]

Tac, I will order the back issue as you suggest ASAP. I have molded some of the 575gr. bullets from one of the molds that I obtained with the rifle. What would a good starting load for this be? Also, are you gentlemen there in the UK casting your own bullets or forming them?

 

[ResearchPress]

Almost everyone I know who shoots the Whitworth casts hexagonal bullets. Cylindrical are cast or swaged. One friend has made a swage for hexagonal bullets.

David

 

[TFoley]

Almost everyone I know who shoots the Whitworth casts hexagonal bullets. Cylindrical are cast or swaged. One friend has made a swage for hexagonal bullets.

David

This might be true of the members of the MLAGB, but here in the backwoods, where I am the only person with a Whitworth, the reality is somewhat different. I only know about what other Whitworth shooters do from reading what Mr Minshall and Mr Curtis have written on the subject, and from what I have read on these pages here [not forgetting the historical accounts from Private Aytch, of course].

In spite of a fair bit of trial and error, my Dyson mould remains an interesting curio and expensive paperweight rather than a useable bullet mould, my George Arnold mould has been sold to a neighbour of his who may well be able to shoot the products more effectively than I ever could after twenty years of trying, Mijneer Kranen and his amazing Dutch mould remain a far-off dream [he has never responded to my communications in over five years of trying], and the gentleman in New York [Mr Romano?] also remains incommunicado, perhaps just as well in view of the astronomical cost of his mould.

Now that the Polisar Brothers have ceased their brave venture into swaging a beautiful flat-base bullet courtesy of Mr Corbin's fine swaging press, a copy of which he then tried to sell to me [hah], there is no easy way of making a suitable bullet that is also hexagonal, hence my reluctance to post anything of value about my experiences shooting cylindrical bullets.

Suffice it to say that if shooting cylindrical bullets was good enough for Sergeant Powell [killer of Genl Sedgwick], then it's prolly good enough for this boy. Anyhow, every round bullet I've ever recovered seemed to be perfectly hexagonal as it left the muzzle, due to the kick up the butt it got from 90gr of FFg.

I stand in awe of anybody who can whittle out a hexagonal bullet swage, but I have other things to do [running trains, pushing wheelchairs, teaching the disabled to shoot, as well as shooting seventeen other guns that need my attention], so meanwhile, I'll sit this one out, and let my betters and better informed carry on the motion.

All I know for sure is that five consecutive Polisar bullets, each weighing in at 605gr, unpatched, over 80gr of FFg, shot into a raggedy hole that measures just over 1.2" at 100m.

And I only has 32 of them left.

tac

 

[ResearchPress]

Almost everyone I know who shoots the Whitworth casts hexagonal bullets. Cylindrical are cast or swaged. One friend has made a swage for hexagonal bullets.
David

This might be true of the members of the MLAGB, but here in the backwoods, where I am the only person with a Whitworth, the reality is somewhat different.

Not sure I entirely follow the above, but maybe my note was ambiguous. I was attempting to answer the question posted:

"Also, are you gentlemen there in the UK casting your own bullets or forming them?"

So, to clarify perhaps, I was not suggesting that most shoot hexagonal bullets, merely whether they were cast or swaged:

Hexagonal bullets: of the people I know who shoot these, one has made a swage. All others who use them in so far as I know, cast them.

Cylindrical bullets: either cast or swaged bullets are used by the Whitworth shooters I know; most are probably cast.

One of the most consistently successful Whitworth shooters that I know shoots a cylindrical paper patched bullet. The base has a deep cavity.

The following is taken from original Whitworth loading instructions:

"The cylindrical form of projectile is the best for general use. It is 530 grains in weight and is wrapped with paper. In loading, the projectile should be pressed gently home, and should not be so forced down as to crush the lubricating wad or the grains of powder. Projectiles cast from the mould are not to be relied upon for accurate shooting, unless they are passed through a die-press."

David

 

[paulab]

Ozark....Last summer on the practice day before a b.p.ctg. silhouette match, one of my friends was shooting a Whitworth. When I asked him about what kind of bullet he was using, he showed me a two piece swedge. It looked just like a bullet mould. To form hex bullets with it he placed a .45 cal. 500 grain Govt. round nosed bullet [cast from a Lyman mould] in one half, placed the other half over it, and then put it in a bench vise and squeezed the swedge together to form perfect hex bullets. He was regularly hitting rams at 500 meters so I saw first hand that they were fairly accurate. Are any of you Whitworth shooters familiar with this swedge? I'll try to get the name of the maker. cheers Paul