Patch Lube and Seasoning

[GreyD]

Hmmm
Just thinking here not arguing one way or other.
Powder burns at a pretty high temp. As I recall about 1700 degrees. You grease your patch and have a ball that works as a great heat sink above it. Still it toast to a dark brown. And if your patch is a bit loose you can get blow by and burn up you patch.
Now when I season cast iron I only get it to hot enough to fry in. Not so hot that my grease would smoke.
And the grease isn’t exposed to direct flame.
Wouldn’t hot flame pretty much burn out any oil in you barrel.
I clean a new barrel but it takes about ten-twenty shots before it really starts to shoot well. I always blamed it on left over oil in the barrel.
When done I clean with water, some times some mild soap. Then after drying I gease. Before I shoot I wipe out the barrel. I don’t think much in the way of oil/ grease/ moose milk in a microscopic film on the inside would stand up to the blowtourch inside the barrel.... just guessing here as I said not arguing just thinking.

I'm thinking too. You make a point here. You are right that there is probably some combustion of the oil and fats at that high a temperature. But a combustion reaction is a complex thing and temperature profiles are going to vary within the barrel. It would be interesting to model. The inside of the barrel is going to be cooler and act as a heat sink so maybe some of the oil/fat on the surface doesn't get combusted and does polymerize. The rest may be combusted. In fact, it probably does. I don't know what the ignition temp of various oils/fats are (need to check) but probably below 2800 F.

 

[Carbon 6]

I'm thinking too. You make a point here. You are right that there is probably some combustion of the oil and fats at that high a temperature. But a combustion reaction is a complex thing and temperature profiles are going to vary within the barrel. It would be interesting to model. The inside of the barrel is going to be cooler and act as a heat sink so maybe some of the oil/fat on the surface doesn't get combusted and does polymerize. The rest may be combusted. In fact, it probably does. I don't know what the ignition temp of various oils/fats are (need to check) but probably below 2800 F.

You need to stop thinking about this in the hypothetical and actually test it on one of your good frying pans. Go ahead, see if you can season a fry pan just using black powder and bore butter.

It can't be done.

The powder and lube are in contact with each other.

Try seasoning a pan by flipping it over and exposing the surface you want seasoned to the flame.
Won't work. will it ?
That's how i remove seasoning.

 

[tenngun]

I think you would burn off some with each shot. But you run a greased patch down the bore with each load.
Do you replace all you burn off?
Then what about your smoothies. Many shoot a cartridges or wadded ball. How long would that take to burn off any seasoning?
And the boys that use moose milk. Mostly water with a bit of water soluble oil.
Hows about a hard fat, vs an oil or a home made bore butter, bees wax and olive oil? How about pea shooters with twenty grain charger vs pumpkin chunkin when a hundred or more?

 

[Carbon 6]

Is "seasoning" impervious to BP fouling ? (not to mention Pyrodex).

Coat your well seasoned pan with powder and light it, then report back on the condition a month later.

 

[GreyD]

You need to stop thinking about this in the hypothetical and actually test it on one of your good frying pans. Go ahead, see if you can season a fry pan just using black powder and bore butter.

It can't be done.

Ha, ha. Nope on the blackpowder/frying pan test. I like my barrel cross section idea better. Besides, too many different variables between a frying pan and combustion within a pressurized barrel, i.e., holding a frying pan over a steady flame versus a combustion reaction that takes a mere fraction of a second. I understand your reasoning, and it is likely correct, but it is still just theory. Seems like someone somewhere in the history of ML has split a barrel and looked at what's there. Show me the barrel and I will put this to rest.

 

[rdlowe]

I've been reading a lot of posts and I'm putting this out here because I see all sorts of conflicting information to the point where I'm really irked about it. I know this has been covered before but I haven't read anything that really satisfies me or makes me think anyone really knows what they are talking about.

Welcome to the firearms enthusiasts’ corner of the Internet

 

[Carbon 6]

Besides, too many different variables between a frying pan and combustion within a pressurized barrel, i.e., holding a frying pan over a steady flame versus a combustion reaction that takes a mere fraction of a second.

If there are too many" variables", then why do you think a barrel can be seasoned like a pan ?
It's those "variables" that make it impossible to any useful degree.
You're making my argument for me again. Thanks!

 

[Carbon 6]

Seems like someone somewhere in the history of ML has split a barrel and looked at what's there.

I could probably round up a few thousand testimonials where barrels were ruined trying to "season" them.
Most guys don't bother dissecting their barrel after it's ruined. They buy a new one and learn to properly clean their gun.

 

[GreyD]

If there are too many" variables", then why do you think a barrel can be seasoned like a pan ?
It's those "variables" that make it impossible to any useful degree.
You're making my argument for me again. Thanks!

You're right. It's just your argument not proof. I don't know and neither do you. It's your guess based upon your assumptions of what is going on with grease and combustion inside a barrel. Not good enough for me. Keep talking, but like I said at the outset nobody really knows for sure what they are talking about unless they have looked at and analyzed what is on the surface of a barrel.

 

[GreyD]

I could probably round up a few thousand testimonials where barrels were ruined trying to "season" them.
Most guys don't bother dissecting their barrel after it's ruined. They buy a new one and learn to properly clean their gun.

So what are you talking about when you say try to "season" them? Are you talking about coating and heating? If you are talking about using fat/oil on patches and shooting then you just admitted that it does season the barrel. Which is it? And who coats and heats their barrel like a frying pan to season it? That's not what I'm talking about at all.

 

[Carbon 6]

I don't know and neither do you.

Yes, I do know.

 

[hawkeye2]

So if I pack my barrel with bacon grease and put it in the oven for an hour at 400 deg. It should clean easier and shoot tighter groups?


Here's a good read on seasoning:

https://www.lodgecastiron.com/cleaning-and-care/cast-iron/science-cast-iron-seasoning

 

[Carbon 6]

And who coats and heats their barrel like a frying pan to season it? That's not what I'm talking about at all.

You used a frying pan as an example. Do you often make example of things you are not talking about?

I'm done with you, thank you for being the Sunday troll.

Now where's my Ignore button ? oh here it is,

 

[longcruise]

Try seasoning a pan by flipping it over and exposing the surface you want seasoned to the flame.
Won't work. will it ?
That's how i remove seasoning.

True, removing seasoning from a cast cooking implement is very easily done by putting it in an electric oven oven and running the clean cycle. No where near the 2800 degree mark.

Here's another actual observation I've made. I had a steel fry pan well seasoned that had built up quite a bit of crud on the exterior. I put it in the oven on clean and took it out when cool planning to re season it. What I found was rust over every bit of the pan inside and out.

Wonder if that's something you want going on under the seasoning in your barrel?

 

[GreyD]

I'll leave one last thought. One of the purposes in using natural oils/fats in BP shooting is to soften the fouling. If it gets blown out and/or fully combusted then there would be no residual grease in the barrel to soften the remaining fouling. So not all of it gets combusted or blown out of the barrel. I find it hard to believe that there isn't some form of seasoning effect taking place on the surface of the barrel, even if it is insignificant or subsequently gets removed from shooting/cleaning.

I'm not saying to anyone here anything about wanting to season a barrel or whether or not it is something you want or don't want. My point is to know if there is a seasoning effect when using natural grease for patch lube. So far, all I see is theorizing and educated guesses, which may or may not be correct.

 

[Crow-Feather]

Everyone has a method that works for them. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that there were a few tussles at Rondy over bear oil versus whale oil. And especially flint vs. cap locks. I profess that one should never use petroleum type oil in their rifles and have had a few discussions with others concerning that. The end result is that everyone still believes what works for them. One purpose of the forum is to exchange ideas hoping that others might find a better way. I have sometimes found my temper finding it's way to the computer keys for reasons that in retrospect, seem inconsequential. (I had to try a big word) Of course, I am never wrong and feel sorry for those who find my beliefs ludicrous. (nother big word)
I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and two different methods can produce the same result. (Unless it is different from my own belief in which case, it aint gonna work)

 

[Griz44Mag]

Wouldn’t hot flame pretty much burn out any oil in you barrel.

YUP, that's why you very likely will need to re-season a cast iron skillet that has been overheated to smoke or charring temperatures.
(Ask my wife about that one, according to her a stove has 2 settings - high and off,)

 

[Crow-Feather]

YUP, that's why you very likely will need to re-season a cast iron skillet that has been overheated to smoke or charring temperatures.
(Ask my wife about that one, according to her a stove has 2 settings - high and off,)

With some oils, you are left with residue.

 

[Carbon 6]

I find it hard to believe that there isn't some form of seasoning effect taking place on the surface of the barrel, even if it is insignificant or subsequently gets removed from shooting/cleaning.

The onus of learning is upon you.
Even if a tiny minuscule amount of "Seasoning" took place, So what? It is inconsequential.

And I'm no expert, but I do have a chemical engineering degree and recognize that polymerization reactions can be quite instantaneous and could occur during the short time of a muzzle blast.

Even in the presence of an alkali ?

Prove me wrong or give me evidence to the contrary. Like I said, a cross sectioned barrel with an analysis of any barrel coatings seems to be the only way to prove it or disprove it.

It seems you have a barrel to cut up and examine, seems that is the only thing that will convince you.
What tools will you use to examine it ?

 

[Carbon 6]

If you are talking about using fat/oil on patches and shooting then you just admitted that it does season the barrel.

No I didn't.
Don't conflate seasoning of steel with seasoning of a muzzleloader barrel.
They are not the same, one can be done, the other cannot.