patch question for Dutch

[Dr5x]

USING A MICROMETER AND MEASURING THICKNESS OF SHOOTING PATCH MATERIAL
AND USING SHIMS TO GET THE THICKNESS TO WHERE IWOULD GET BENCH REST GROUP DOWN TO A NICKEL OR THUMB NAIL I WOULD THEN, MICROMETER IN HAND SEARCH THE DENIMS IN THE FABRIC STORE TO LOCATE A FABRIC THAT, COMPRESSED, MEASURED THE SAME OR AS CLOSE TO THE SAME AS THE MEASUREMENT I HAD SETTLED ON IN MMY DEVELOPING EXPERIMENTS. I THEN BOUGHT 9 YARDS OF THAT MATERIAL AND NEVER USED ANYTHING ELSE. WHY WOULD I THEN START USING RANDOM THICKNESSES FOR PATCH ING IN LATER SHOOTS.
SPENCE, I DON'T FOLOW YOUR QUESTION. IT WAS LIKE
AFTER YOU HAVE FOUR EXACTLY RIGHT TIRES ON YOUR CAR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU PUT THE WRONG SIZE TIRE ON ONE OF THE WHEELS?
WHY WOILD YOU DO THAT?


ONCE YOU HAVE ALL YOUR INTERNAL BALLISTIC PROBLEMS NAILED DOWN, WHY EVER WOUD YOU CHANGE IT.

DUTCH

Reading through an old thread, a question occurred to me. In the thread, Dutch said:


Dutch, does your method require a patch of at least a certain compressed thickness, no smaller, or is it exactly one certain compressed thickness, no more, no less?

In other words, what happens if you figure out the perfect compressed thickness of a patch, but then use one which is thicker?

Spence

 

[George]

SPENCE, I DON'T FOLOW YOUR QUESTION. IT WAS LIKE AFTER YOU HAVE FOUR EXACTLY RIGHT TIRES ON YOUR CAR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU PUT THE WRONG SIZE TIRE ON ONE OF THE WHEELS?
WHY WOILD YOU DO THAT?
ONCE YOU HAVE ALL YOUR INTERNAL BALLISTIC PROBLEMS NAILED DOWN, WHY EVER WOUD YOU CHANGE IT.

DUTCH, WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET YOU TO EXPLAIN IS THE MECHANISM, THE CAUSE OF THE LOSS OF ACCURACY. I UNDERSTAND THAT IF THE PATCH IS TOO THIN THEN GASSES CAN ESCAPE PAST IN A RANDOM WAY AND CAUSE LOSS OF ACCURACY. BUT, IF YOU HAVE A PERFECT THICKNESS AND ARE SHOOTING THOSE NICKLE-SIZE GROUPS, THEN YOU PUT IN A PATCH THAT IS THICKER, YOU SAY ACCURACY WILL DECREASE. WHY, WHAT HAPPENS TO MAKE THE ACCURACY FALL OFF?

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT ANYBODY ACTUALLY DO THIS, I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU THINK DOING IT WOULD BE A PROBLEM. IF ACCURACY DID ACTUALLY FALL OFF, WHAT CAUSED IT?

SPENCE

 

[George]

ARE YOU STILL THINKING ABOUT THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION, DUTCH?

SPENCE

 

[Stumpkiller]

I did 2 things:
1) I tested the thickness of my patch cloth by twisting the barrel of my micrometer quite hard, which allowed me to know more accurately the practical shooting thickness of my patch cloth. The screw in the mic provides the mechanical advantage to squeeze the cloth more like it gets squeezed in the rifle when sandwiched between the ball and bore.

If you use the same tension on an empty micrometer what is the result? Negative readings - which are impossible. That's tool abuse.

 

[Bent Sight]

I get reasonable accuracy using a patch that is 0.015" compressed thickness. For grins I shot my .45 caliber with a patch that was 0.012" compressed thickness to see what would happen. With the same round ball, the same powder, the same charge weight, etc., my group size doubled at 50 meters.

For the sake of experimentation, I shot a group using dry 0.015" patches with no lube whatsoever. My 50 meter dry patch group size was noticeably smaller than with patches treated with 1:7 Ballistol/water, Murphy's Oil Soap and Ox Yoke patches. When I recovered the dry patches they appeared normal.

 

[Howard Pippin]

I get reasonable accuracy using a patch that is 0.015" compressed thickness. For grins I shot my .45 caliber with a patch that was 0.012" compressed thickness to see what would happen. With the same round ball, the same powder, the same charge weight, etc., my group size doubled at 50 meters.

For the sake of experimentation, I shot a group using dry 0.015" patches with no lube whatsoever. My 50 meter dry patch group size was noticeably smaller than with patches treated with 1:7 Ballistol/water, Murphy's Oil Soap and Ox Yoke patches. When I recovered the dry patches they appeared normal.

Hi Bent Sight. Having experiment with many different patch materials that I could get a hold of for many years, it wasn't until I had a digital caliper that I could measure it accurately. I can get the same measurement on a patch as was advertised. I have some that are .010 and I only use them to lightly lube the bore after I clean it. I've been using.014 factory patches or loading and they seemed about right and when I started using Murphy's oil soap for patch lube, Then they seem like they were too loose soul I have a lot of pillow ticking that measures .018 I am going to see if that will work. After doing some more checking, I discovered where a fellow posted that cutting square patches worked as good as round, and as soon as the weather gives me a break I am going to try square patches with Murphy's oil soap and see what happens. They sure are a lot easier to make. I heat the Murphy's oil soap in the microwave in order to have it penetrate all the patches, and then squeeze them out all I can. They are no problem if I load and shoot right away, but I'm sure when I hunt with them I will have to use a felt spacer in between the bullet patch and the powder. This is all in a Flintlock. I have never tried loading was a dry patch I actually didn't think you could and I didn't want to to get a ball stuck.

 

[George]

ARE YOU STILL THINKING ABOUT THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION, DUTCH?

I GUESS NOT. OK, I'LL PUT YOU DOWN AS AN 'I DON'T KNOW EITHER'.

SPENCE

 

[Dr5x]

YOUR QUETSION WAS IF AFTER FINDING THE THE IDEAL COMPRESSED THICKNESS PATCH WHAT WOULD BE THE EFFECT OF USING A THICKER PATCH?
MY ANSWER WAS WHY WOULD YOU USE A THICKER PATCH IF YOU HAVE ALREADY FOUND THE IDEAL.
SO LET'S SUPPOSE A PERSON HAS FOUND THE PERFECT PATCH THICKNESS FOR HIS RIFLE AND BALL SIZE AND THEN DECIDES BASED ON SOME ORHER VARIETY OF LOGIC TO USE A THICKER COMPRESSED THICKNESS PATCH,
IT WOULD BE A TRIFLE HARDER TO LOAD AND THE GREATER THE EXCESS THE MORE LIKELY WOULD HE DISFIGURE THE FACE OF THE BA;; BRINGING IN AERODYNAMIC PROBLEMS.

THE ACCURACY WOULD BE LITTLE AFFECTED AT FIRST BUT THE TIGHTER FIT WOULD CAUSE GREATER RESISTANCE TO THE PRESSURE OF THE EXPLODING POWDER AND YOU WILL BEGIN TO HAVE OTHER PROBLENS WITH THE POWDER CHARGE THE TYPE OF LUBRICATIOB ETC,

IF AFTER FINFING THE IDEAL PATCH MATERIAL, TO ARBITRARILY GO TO A THICKER FABRIC WOULD, TO ME, BE STUPID.

ACCORDINGLY I CANNOT UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION WHICH I HAVE REPEATEDLY ANSWERED AS I HAVE DONE ABOVE.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ



DUTCH SC

I GUESS NOT. OK, I'LL PUT YOU DOWN AS AN 'I DON'T KNOW EITHER'.

SPENCE

I GUESS NOT. OK, I'LL PUT YOU DOWN AS AN 'I DON'T KNOW EITHER'.

SPENCE

 

[George]

IT WOULD BE A TRIFLE HARDER TO LOAD AND THE GREATER THE EXCESS THE MORE LIKELY WOULD HE DISFIGURE THE FACE OF THE BA;; BRINGING IN AERODYNAMIC PROBLEMS.

THE ACCURACY WOULD BE LITTLE AFFECTED AT FIRST BUT THE TIGHTER FIT WOULD CAUSE GREATER RESISTANCE TO THE PRESSURE OF THE EXPLODING POWDER AND YOU WILL BEGIN TO HAVE OTHER PROBLENS WITH THE POWDER CHARGE THE TYPE OF LUBRICATIOB ETC,

THANK YOU, DUTCH. I'M SIMPLY TRYING LEARN WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE QUESTION I ASKED, AND YOU HAVE SHARED YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT IT, SO I WILL STOP ASKING.

I LIKE TO KNOW NOT ONLY WHAT HAPPENS, BUT WHY.

SPENCE