Patch tearing

[Grenadier1758]

So the question now is - does bore butter/1000 lube break down cotton fibers? Hummmm

Most lubricants will break down the cotton over a period of a couple of months.

Best to lubricate the patch just before loading.

 

[renegadehunter]

I've had that experience with store bought prelubed patches. When I first got my .54 renegade I used store bought prelubed patches, .015" TC cotton ones with "Natural Loob 1000". My rifle shot them really well, must've gotten a pretty fresh batch of them. I used them for hunting that first year, but was using a liquid lube for target shooting so that package sat around until the next hunting season. Before the season that next year I didn't get the accuracy I remembered. It would print 3 or 4 of them fine and then suddenly throw one 3"-6" out of the group. I've had this same trouble if I lube up some patches myself and let them sit too long. Read on this site that lubed patches can get old and not hold up well, really seems to depend on what kind of lube is used. I went away from the bore butter / wonder lube types for different reasons, but I try not to lube patches more than a month before I'm going to use them now. I still get a flier here and there but suspect they are more from "the nut behind the gun" now.

 

[mooman76]

It wouldn't do it that fast. I have had some guns where when I used BB the patch would be burned threw. Still shot good so it didn't bother me too much but I only use BB occasionally anyway.

 

[EC121]

Cotton is a natural product. It will decay by itself if given enough time. A lube with petroleum products in it will probably accelerate the decay. I have never used Bore Butter, but have read that it is mostly like chapstick with fragrance added.

 

[Siringo]

Update - today I shot using October Country daisy patches 0.020 lubed with their bumblin bear grease, 0.530 ball and 100 grains of Goex FFG. Patches all looked good. So my conclusion at this point is the prelude bore butter patches were thick enough, but the material is weak.

 

[hanshi]

I've never liked those prelubed patches and found them to not be very strong or consistent. Rice barrels are already smoothed and need no "breaking in". Most all barrels do benefit from a good polishing of the muzzle crown as often the patch is torn by the sharp entry into the muzzle.

 

[Carbon 6]

Also I coned the barrel. It almost seems as if the ball is tearing the patch when being loaded or seated.

I bet that is exactly what's happening, you sharpened the lands when you coned it.

 

[Siringo]

I bet that is exactly what's happening, you sharpened the lands when you coned it.

I don’t think so. I have a camera that I can get down the bore and I cannot even see where the transition is. I do use J.B. bore paste after coning. I shot 8 consecutive shots without wiping with the bear grease patches. The eigth shot loaded with the same force as the first.

I took some velocities to. Here are the numbers. Also note that these velocities were with the bore butter patches. These are all weighed charges:
100 grains of Goex ffg - 1640 FPS
90 grains of Old Enysford ffg - 1819 FPS
90 grains of Swiss ffg - 1740 FPS
90 grains of Swiss 1/2. - 1646 FPS (hard to ignite)
90 grains of Goex Express ffg - 1598 FPS
90 gains of Goex cowboy - 1606 FPS

Goex Express and regular ffg shot 1” groups at 50 yards. Followed by Old Eynford, which had an occasional blown patch. Swiss was the same way (in another 54 with a colarain barrel I use a backer patch with Swiss). Cowboy was the worse.

Goex cowboy and Express are not longer made.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Start a ball as you normally would, but using an over-sized piece of material that you can pull back out and inspect for tears in the fabric. This is how I discovered that I needed to polish the muzzle radius.

 

[Dr5x]

i have a new Rice barrel in 54 caliber. While working up the best load, I sometimes get patches that are torn in half. Also patches that have a chunk out of the outer edge. I’m using prelubed oxyoke .020 with a .530 ball and 90 grains of old eynsford 2f. Also use 100 grains of regular goex ffg. The patch damage is not constant. Either one of these charges will shoot into less than 11/2” at 50 yards (benched). I swab between shots too. Also I coned the barrel. It almost seems as if the ball is tearing the patch when being loaded or seated.

Looking for some help here. Thanks.

THERE MUST BE A METAL SNAG GRABBING UOT PATCHES.THIS WILL PROBABLT GO AWAY FTER new note shots.
{ am puzzled by your care for injured patches.
Do you intend to reuse them?
I am interested in the groups you are getting.
Are there any aberrations in the hits on target that think might be caused by these snags?
If the groups appear normal then I think you can quit worrying about your patches. If the groups are a bit wild then you might want to send down a piece of mild sandpaper or some Scotch Brite rubbing cloth. Push slowly down the barrel, feeling for where that snag might be. If you can locate it you will be be better able to know when it's gone.
Dutch.

 

[Carbon 6]

In the 100 grain range patch burn through can become a problem. I question if you are experiencing burn through or cutting/ tearing. You might want to try a different lube or a felt powder wad and see if the results change.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Perhaps a photo of the blown patches would be helpful.

 

[Tinhorn]

I got crazy and desperate one time, and put a woodscrew into a .530 ball and tapped it into my WD40 lubed .50 Browning to get a real measure of the lands and grooves with a micrometer. Don't laugh, if done nicely, it works! Just another technique to use if all else fails. Tinhorn

 

[Grenadier1758]

I've done the screw through an oversized ball and I will affirm that it does work. It is good for measurement at the muzzle, however if the muzzle is coned, then the readings will be false. You need a straight bore. I have also driven the oversized ball through an unbreeched barrel. The measurement of the ball will be the smallest diameter of the barrel. You do get a good idea of how smooth the barrel is.

 

[Gulch]

Hello, been at this for a little over 20 years but only 1 .54 Rice round bottom rifled barrel. I went through. My normal procedures to work up a load.
What i ended up with . i coned the barrel, used 4 ought steel wool to remove some sharp edges, .526 balls, .020 patches from track and tracks mink oil for lube, 100 grain hunting load and 50 grain target load of 2F goex. Very happy with this combination.

 

[EC121]

.526s with a .023 patch are what I use. I roll the muzzle with a chainsaw file(lightly) and polish it with wet or dry paper.

 

[Greenjoytj]

I say yes, long term storage with chemicals that could be mildly ph basic or acidic will weaken the cotton fibres.

Lube your own patches and not too many in advance of your shooting needs because what ever lube you choose could also cause long term breakdown of the cotton fibres.

You could do a long term test on your patch & lube by making up a bunch and shooting them against new stock every couple of months to see if there’s a performance change between fresh patches and the ones that have been soaking in lube for months or years.

New barrels have sharp edges that are hard on patches until they dull a bit.

Don’t forget to do a patch and ball fit test:
Slide a brass rod about 6” long into the barrel this will be the sliding hammer.
Start a PRB into the muzzle push it in about 1 inch, wait a minute then up end the rifle an very gently tap the PRB out don’t distort the ball with heavy slide hammer pounding as the will cause a false reading of the cloth weave embossed on the equatorial circumference of the ball.
A properly fitting ball & patch combo will show the cloth weave pattern embossed heavy (deeply) at the lands and lighter (shallow) in the grooves.
If the weave pattern is missing in the groove area the PRB combo is too loose a fit and accuracy will suffer.
Bigger ball or thicker patch or both will be required to get the proper PRB fit to the rifling.
If your already using a robust tight weave cloth patch of good thickness I would try a bigger ball over trying thicker patches. Bigger ball = heavier ball = more K.E. with less fragile (cloth) gasket material occupying the windage space between ball and bore steel.

 

[Flintandsteel]

You don’t need to do anything to the Rice barrel. Change your patches, and or your lube.
ive used at least 2 dozen Rice barrels, and with the proper load, lube, they’ll all shoot one ragged hole, and the patches reusable.
Id ditch the lube.

.005” under bore size ball and .020” patch is a perfect place to be.
First 7 shots out of a Rice .45. They will all shoot this way!

 

[Rich]

The combo pushes down with moderate pressure. A firm push. I have another 54 but a colarain barrel. Same combo does not cause this. Accuracy between the two barrels is very similar.

I have a couple of things loaded without powder, by mistake. The patches look fine when that are pulled.

Different barrels may want different things. I think you need a .015 patch. Try it