Patches after shooting

[Idaho Elk Hunter]

I noticed also that the thinner patches were all burning through, so I went to .018 T/C lubed patches and still had some that burned through and some that didn't. I assume the ones that didn't burn were the good shots that were on the money at 25 yds. Now what can cause some to burn and some to not burn through. I didn't pick each one up after each shot and should have I guess.

I used .530 Hornady RB with .018 TC lubed pillow ticking patches and maybe I should have used .535 RB instead....would that maybe seal better and hopefully group better too and do away with the burn holes in patches, but some patches were almost perfect?

I appreciate everyone's responses to my questions earlier and look forward to what you have to say about this one as well.

Maybe the patches that showed burn holes were right after swabbing barrel using Pyrodex Select RS and the good ones were after it fouled a little and therefore sealed a little better. Like I said in other post I have ordered 5 lbs of Goex that will be here in about 5 or 6 days hopefully and I will also try .535 RBs instead of .530. I sure wasn't this scientific in the 70's and 80's with my Hawken 50...maybe I just got lucky and had the right chemistry from the get go on that rifle. But, all I used ever was just Goex BP and nothing else too.
Jim

 

[Zonie]

JimBob: I'm going to assume you were using pure cotton patches. As you recall, any material with any polyester or nylon or other man made ingrediants won't work worth a dam for a ball patch.
Assuming the patch is cotton, are you applying enough lube to it. If it is too dry, it will burn thru. If it is too wet, it will contaminate your powder charge. It should be thurly coated into the weave but not much more.

I have shot a lot of Pyrodex without any burn thru but most of my charges are target loads of 55 grains for my .45 cal or 65 grains for my .50s. I've read that real heavy loads of Pyrodex or 777 can burn the best of patches.

Also check the muzzle of your rifle to see if the lands are sharp. Sometimes, if the edges are sharp they will cut the patch when your loading. A cut patch will often burn thru when it's shot.

If the rifleing lands are sharp, I would use some 600 grit wet/dry carbide paper to hone off the sharpness using finger pressure only. You don't really want to change the crown, just remove the sharpness.

 

[Idaho Elk Hunter]

Thanks Zonie........I did use T/C pure cotton .018 pre-lubed pillow ticking patches. The patches are several years old as I bought them two years ago and just haven't used them and they are pre-lubed in the package and I did not add any Bore Butter to them before seating them in barrel with RB.

I should apply a small amount of Bore Butter to them next time, but not enough to cause any problems with powder. Yes, they could have been cut as the brand new Renegade barrel (even though this gun is 10 yrs old at least, but was never shot even one time by original owner)is kind of on the sharp side if you know what I mean.

I was using 80 grains of Pyrodex Select RS on .530 RB by Hornady. I did order from Possible Shop a box of Hornady .535 RBs tonight.

This forum is awesome! What I have learned here in the last 24 hrs is unbelievable!!!!!! Such nice people and wanting to help those in question about certain things really makes it fun too. Good group.

Jim

 

[Stumpkiller]

Jim Bob,

How old is your rifle? Most take 200 or 300 shots to "settle in" and break in a barrel. It is possible yours still has overly sharp edges on the lands of the rifling. Take a cleaning jag and put double, or triple, cleaning patches on it and slide it in and out once dry (with a clean barrel). If you hold the outer patch up to the light it should not be cut or worn through. If your barrel is fraying patches, those edges might appear to be burning through, when in fact they were cut first.

You can either keep shooting and wear it in, or cut a piece off a 3-M Scrunge pad just small enough to completely cover the jag while forming a tight fit in the bore and run it through the barrel a couple dozen swipes to de-burr any sharp or rough spots.

If it doesn't slice the patch, it could be the pre-lubed patches have dried out too long. Re-lubing should eliminate that.

Any chance you could scan a patch? They suould look like this:

 

[mowolf]

When I was using Pyrodex RS in my .45 and .50 Hawkens, I never found the pathes, they would completely burn up. I was using range loads, 50 grns in the 45 and 75 in the 50. When I switched to GOEX 2f and increase the powser to 65 for the 45 and 100 for the 50, same patches same .44 and .49 RB and BB for lube. I now find the patches and they look like the ones in the picture.

Waya :m2c:

 

[musketman]

The only problem I have had with burn through patches was when I used FFFg instead of FFg in my musket, the FFFg would burn through 9 out of 10 patches...

Try adding a bit more lube to your patches, until the GOEX gets there, I believe Pyrodex burns hotter, it has a higher ignition rate...

 

[Idaho Elk Hunter]

Reply to Stumpkiller......

The Renegade 54 in question is a new rifle (even though 12 yrs old) as I bought it in box from fellow that got it as a gift and was afraid to shoot it. Said he didn't know anything about Black Powder guns and just left it in box. It truly had not been put together even and I bought it for $200 with book also in box with price on it at $249.95 for gun that is at time he bought it. I shoot left handed and it is left handed gun, so that is what sparked me to buy it.

The patches were coming out some frayed and burn't and some looked good like the ones you scanned in on your post. I need to spend some time and figure out if the good ones were coming out after a shot or two after swabbing barrel out. After swabbing this gun they load real easy (.530 rb) and I bet they were the patches that were not good. After several shots using Pyrodex they were harder to seat and I think they were the patches that were normal looking. I will look closely now at each patch after shooting each round and see if that is the case. That is why I am going to use .535 RB Hornady next time to see if that helps as with clean barrel the .530 rbs slide in real easy actually.

Thanks again for info.....I really appreciate it from all of you actually.
Jim

 

[Rebel]

Question fer ya. When you got the rifle you say it had never been assembled or fired, right? If that is correct, they come with a type of preservative grease in the barrel. If you didn't take some kind of solvent ( i use spray carb cleaner) and clean the barrel out good before you shot it, this could be part of your problem. If you didn't, get some solvent and a bronze or brass brush and start scrubbin'. Then take some 0000 steel wool and put a piece through a slotted patch holder ( the metal ones that come with a shotgun cleaning kit work good) and spray some WD-40 on it and run it up and down the bore about 50-60 times to clean up the rough edges. After this clean it up and give it a try and see if this helps.

 

[Zonie]

More thoughts on your patches.
You say they are fairly old pre lubed patches, and that might be a part of the problem.

If your not up on the Muzzle Blasts magazine (published by NMLRA) they have some guys called the Bevel Brothers who answer a lot of questions and conduct some simple experiments.

A few months ago, they tested some patches which had been pre lubed and left to sit for months. They found that leaving the lube (they were using water soluble cutting oil) on the patches for months weakened the material to the point that it would sometimes blow the entier center of the patch out.

I know this isn't your problem, but the lube might have weakened the patches and if they were a little dry that could explain why the accuracy wasn't real good and some of them were burning.

 

[Idaho Elk Hunter]

In Reply to Rebels post.......

the Renegade 54 did have a heavy type grease in the barrel and it was pretty dry also as it had been in the barrel for about 10 yrs. I did brush it and put solvent which I believe at that time was Hoppes Black Powder solvent if I remember correctly. This was proof to me that what the guy told me about never firing the gun was true, as I would have not bought it unless I was sure.

This was my 4th muzzle loader rifle and I will not buy a used muzzle loader due to the chance of having corrosion in breech or barrel. (just how I happen to be, as I won't buy a used pickup either)
This gun without question was not fired and most likely I need to shoot it more and try "de-burring" the barrel with a brush or compound such as a lapping compound or something like that maybe. But, some of the patches are perfect and that is what I need to get to the bottom of. I will find each patch after each shot next time. I failed to do this yesterday, I gathered the patches after shooting a number of times first, so I cannot tell you if the good patches were after barrel was fouled some.... as ball went down harder after several shots and maybe that sealed the gases better and resulted in good patches. I would swab it and the ball would seat fairly easy at first and second shot and that is why I am trying .535 this next time to see if that works as my old 50 Hawken always seated real tight even with first ball. It was "very accurate" and grouped real tight at 100yds. But, I only used Goex BP then also.

Jim

 

[roundball]

FWIW, my TC .54's are outstanding with the following:

Targets = 60grns Goex FFFg
Deer hunting = 90grns Goex FFFg + Oxyoke wonderwad
TC .018 prelubed pillow ticking for both
Hornady (or Speer) .530 balls for both

Keeping oil based lubes out of the bore and using something like Natural Lube 1000 as a bore lube & patch lube should let you shoot many, many times without wiping between shots.

 

By all means, try the .535RB with that same .018 patch.
A new barrel, if polished inside with 4-ought steel wool, will cease to cut/burn patches if the lands are the cause. the wook removes the sharp feather-edge put up by the rifling cutter.
: As well, a too sharp crown will also 'cut-then-burn' the patches, but usually, the cut/burn caused by the crown is circular in shape or all-encompassing.

 

[pepperbelly]

Rebel, I have been collecting old rifles like Mausers that come in cosmoline- usually lots of cosmoline. We have tried many different products to degrease them, including carb cleaner. It was generally though that carb cleaner was too strong, but spray brake cleaner works very well without damagine anything and is about $3.00 per can.
I have heard a few people who used carb cleaner and actually removed some bluing.
Just a friendly word,
Jim

 

[Rebel]

Jim, thanks for the advice. It may have actually been spray brake cleaner, i'm not sure, i have both of them here. I do know that stuff is a real pain to get out of the bore with normal cleaners.

 

[pepperbelly]

We also use mineral spirits on parts we can take off.
Why are petroleum products bad in black powder rifles? I keep reading references to natural lubes and not using petroleum based lubes.
Thanks,
Jim

 

[Rebel]

Jim, well i know a lot of people say they don't, or won't use petroleum products, but i have been using WD-40 in and on my muzzleloaders since the early 70's and i haven't had a problem with it. Just make sure to get the barrel good and clean and then i spray some WD-40 down the barrel and wipe it. When ready to shoot again i use a patch with alcohol to clean the bore before loading. :results:

 

[roundball]

We also use mineral spirits on parts we can take off.
Why are petroleum products bad in black powder rifles? I keep reading references to natural lubes and not using petroleum based lubes.
Thanks,
Jim

Oil based products promote fouling, allow fouling to build up, get hard, etc, natural type lubes don't.

One of the big benfits of natural type lubes is that the fouling is minimal and stays soft so the next shot you load wipes the fouling off the bore and pushed it back down on top of the powder charge, where it's ejected with the next shot.

Then that next shot leaves one shot's worth of soft fouling in the bore, you load again, that fouling gets pushed back down on the powder, and the cycle repeats...the worst you have is the equivalent of a single shots worth of fouling in the bore at any time.

For example, I use Natural Lube 1000 and when I shoot my typical 40 shot range session on Saturday mornings, I don't have to wipe between shots at all.

 

[Keith]

Cleaning out the petroleum based oils before firing, if done well, is no different than not using the oil. That is the oil doesn't add to the fouling. Rebel's wiping with an alcohol swab removes the oil. The patch lube Rebel uses I bet is not petro based, so it performs like RB's gun.

If I am wrong please correct me.

 

[Charles/NM]

It's my opinion that Pyrodex burns hotter than real BP. My patches would burn in the center until I started placing an Ox Yoke pre-lubed wad under the patch. Now they look like the ones in the picture, except the edges are more frazzled. I use yellow T/C lube in the tube. I get good accuracy and can shoot all day without cleaning the bore. In fact, I tried brushing between shots and my accuracy went to pot. My old 1970's vintage T/C 50 caliber Hawken rifle shoots better with the bore fouled.

 

[Rebel]

I use mostly crisco or now, bears fat and beeswax mix for patch lube. I can fired 15-20 shots without wiping the bore usually, and that is all i need to fire. Normally less than that amount of shots is fired.