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Patches for Round balls

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andy gaboric

32 Cal.
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
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I am new to bp shooting and I have always wondered how do you figure out the thickness of patch to use. Do you start out with a certain size and if the gun does not like it do you then make adjustments? I know this may sound like an elementary question but I really have no idea where to start. Also I would like to make my own patches, by going to a fabric store and getting the material there but how do you know what kind to get? Anyway any advice I appericate.
Thanks,
Andy
 
Generally It is trial and error. As far as thickness goes I go pretty much by feel. I know what a .015 and .020 commercial patch feels like and use those as a base to guess the thickness of the cloth. A couple of guidelines are that thin pillow ticking runs about .015 where thick runs about .022. !0 oz. medium weight denim runs about .020 where heavy weight runs about .032. You can usually pick up this fabric at a local fabric store. Just make sure the fabric is 100% cotton or linen.

As far as which patch to use, that's where the trial and error come in. I like a patch/ball combination that short starts with a slap on the short starter and then goes down smoothly. When you fire the rifle try to find the patch. If it is torn up and burned through, the patch is probably too thin. Go to a thicker patch and see what happens. The patches should be intact with some fraying around the edges.

Once you have the patch holding together then you still have to experiment to find the patch/ball combination that give you the best accuracy. I have a Santa Fe .53 that is very picky about patching. An .018 pillow ticking patch will burn up about half the time. I tried a .020 denim patch but could not get better than a 6" group at 50 yards. When I went to a .024 canvas patch the group went to less than an inch at 50 yards.

A good starting point would be to start with .015 ticking and go thicker if that doesn't work. Work with several different fabric thicknesses to see what your rifle likes. It's a long tedious process but rewarding when you can put the balls hole on hole at 50 yards.
 
What Mike posted is good gospel stuff.
Now lets throw in "allowable tolerances" from the ball makers and mold makers. I know that LEE has a .003+ on their molds. I have a .490 that throws .493, a TC mold that is .492 ect.
Until you know what you are playing with in relation to barrel, patch and ball measurements, it is really trial and error!

So, what one needs to do is, get a good set of mics or caliper, learn how to read it, use it with the same pressure time and again, or a clutch on it and calibrate it against a known standard. Machinists will know what I'm saying.

But yes, its trail and error to fine tune to the right combination for any gun.
I have 4 .50 cal guns and use 3 different patches in the 4 guns while using the balls from one common mold.
 
agab6601 said:
Anyway any advice I appericate.

Like the others, I've found that a good starting point is with a .010" under bore-size ball and a .015" patch...ie: .490 in a .50cal, then adjust if you want or need to...here are some patch examples & photos in 4 different calibers:

GM .40cal barrel, Hornady .390s, Oxyoke .015 patches.

050407.jpg



T/C .50cal, Hornady .490s, Oxyoke .015” patches.

Firedpatches-50calroundball.jpg



GM .54cal smoothbore barrel, Hornady .520s, Oxyoke .022” patches

08140954calSmoothorePatches.jpg



GM .62cal rifled barrel, Eddie May .600s, .018” Oxyoke pillow ticking

60-70cal.jpg
 
First, Go to Dutch Schoultz's Website, and order up his black powder rifle accuracy system, for $15.00. It will save you hours of frustration, and teach you how to do this.

You do need to own at least a pair of Calipers. You can buy the "DIAL" calipers through Midway USA< or Midsouth Shooter Supply, for less than $30.00. You really don't need a "digital" caliper, which is about 3 times as expensive, for home use. A digital caliper simply becomes another place to store dead batteries! :shocked2: :rotf:

You can take the caliper with you to the local fabric store. As has been said, learn to close the jaws on fabric consistently, by doing so on known items. Its only through practice that you learn to use any measuring tool correctly. Measure various kinds of paper, for instance, that come through your house each day, from junk mail, to newspaper, to magazine pages. Try notebook paper, and TP. I am serious.

Now, all cotton fabrics compress, when used as a Patch material in your gun. You can expect cotton to compress at least one third of its measured thickness. You need to know the depth of the grooves in your gun barrel, when selecting patch thickness. You want cloth thick enough to fill those grooves, even when compressed.

So, for example, if your groove depth is .010"( 10 thousandths of an inch) , choose a patch made of all cotton, that is at least .015" thick. That way, the material will still compress, but it will also completely fill those grooves. If the ball diameter is .010" SMaller than bore diameter, Land to land, the .015 patch compresses to .010" and then is further compressed more because of the land to land diameter( bore diameter) of your gun. That is what makes the tight fit of patch to ball, even when the patch is lubricated. Lubing the patch helps allow the fabric to stretch, and compress more, mostly by moving extra patch material to the sides and down into the grooves of the rifling next to each land.

Oh, my personal standard, whether using my micrometer, or my calipers, is to close the jaws of the tool on the fabric until its tight enough to offer resistance, but just loose enough to allow the cloth to be slide sideways out of the jaws. I tighten the jaws down enough that I can't move the cloth; then I loosen the jaws slowly, testing the cloth until it begins to move. That becomes my standard measurement for that fabric- provided, it proves to be the same in several places on the bolt of cloth.

If your ball diameter is larger than the nominal .490 for a .50 cal. bore, you may have to use thinner patch material than .015". If the ball diameter from your cast balls is smaller than the nominal .490, you may have to use slightly thicker patch material to shoot the bore.

Then, just to add to the fun of doing all this, a soft lead ball expands, or "upsets" or " obturates", when the gun fires, pushing the fabric sideways even more, and often leaving the cloth weave around the sides of the ball, and distorting the shape of the round ball to show the tops of the lands in the barrel.

In Smoothbore guns, firing PRB, you have an additional problem in selecting the proper patch thickness: You don't have grooves for the fabric to push over into. So, ball size is reduced more than what is usually done with rifles. Its fairly common for shooters to find a ball that is .020" smaller than actual bore diameter, particular in the 24 gauge( .58 cal.) and larger smoothbore barrels.

And, a final problem: We actually ask too much of a cloth fabric patch used in most MLers. Its suppose to lubricate the bore and soften fouling left from the prior shot; its suppose to center the ball in the bore; and its suppose to Seal Gases behind it. If a patch is improperly lubed, or lubed with the wrong material, or if its too thin, or if the shooter is using a hotter burning powder than normal, the patch can burn through, allowing hot gases to cut the lead ball in the barrel, and at the muzzle, so that accuracy goes all wrong!

I have only had very limited success, for instance, using .010" thick or thinner patches in any gun for this reason. I did have a .45 cal. rifle that had very small groove depths, that handled the .010" patch better than thicker patching, and the barrel was short enough that the patch did not have time to burn. But, that has been the exception. If you have a long barrel, small caliber, and are using FFFg powder, or even Swiss powder, which burns hotter, or any of the subs, which burn hotter, its likely that burning patches will be a problem. The same thing seems to happen with large bore guns if a thin patch is used, lubed or not.

So, those are the reasons everyone here is smiling, and telling you that this is a process of trial and error. :grin: :shocked2: There is NO set ball diameter or patch thickness that we can recommend that will be "Perfect" for your gun, unless by sheer LUCK! :hmm:

I have watched and helped shooters with the same brand of gun, same caliber, bought within days of each other, who ended up using different ball diameters, and different patch thickness, and powder charges to get the best groups. Both shooter traded guns and got the same good groups, with each other's guns, so it wasn't the shooters. And, when they tried their own load in the other's guns, groups opened up.

Any recommendation you receive here, or elsewhere just gives you an idea of some place to start that might not blow up your gun. :shocked2: :surrender: The rule of thumb is to begin with a powder charge that is equal to the diameter of your bore. If you shoot a .50 cal. rifle, start with 50 grains of either FFg or FFFg Goex. Work up and down, shooting 5 shot groups from a bench rest, and see what is happening down range. Begin at 25 yds, to get on the paper. Don't be concerned about hitting the bullseye. You are shooting for groups first. You can adjust the sights to move the group to the center of the target later. :bow: :v

When you have a powder charge/patch thickness,/ball diameter/lube combination that seems to shoot well at 25 yds, move back to 50 yds, and repeat the process. Yes, this is probably going to take more than one session at the shooting range. When you have a good group at 50 yds.( one hole that does not get much larger than 2 inches) its time to begin adjusting your sites to "zero " the gun for this load at both 25 and 50 yds. Decide if you are going to use a 6 o'clock hold, or hold dead on center of a target, and at which distance, to zero the load.

Check each Spent Patch, and refer to Dutch's material to learn to read the patches. You can expect to find the patch on the ground between 10 and 20 feet in front of the muzzle. If the range has a lot of ground clutter, rake it off to give you clean ground to better see your own patches. Note the direction and velocity of the wind, as it will affect where your spent patches land.

Some shooters find it necessary to mark their patches with a flow pen, so they can distinguish their patches from others. Its not a bad idea to put such a marker pen in your range box if you shoot at a heavily used shooting range.

If you run into problems, just ask us. We have walked this path you are traveling every time we get a new gun. We tend to be able to shorten up the trip because of "short-cuts" we learn about over the years, but the journey is pretty much the same no matter how experienced a shooter you are. :shocked2: :hatsoff:
 
WOW! That is a lot to digest but I sounds good to me. I really want to thank you guys for your advice. I just yesterday joined a local ML club and talked to some of the guys there about this and got the same answer. So I will have to spend some time at the range (OH DARN!) Thanks again for the advice now I just need to get the gun dialed in.
Thanks,
Andy
 

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