john armstrong
36 Cal.
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Once again roundball I have learned from you.
Thank you,
Thank you,
Patent Breech Discussion Thread
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JOHN L. HINNANT
45 Cal.
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- May 29, 2004
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Good Evening All,
Dave K., You make some very good points. Many people are not aware that England as well as other European countries were colonizing Africa in a big way. They encountered some VERY BIG animals in Africa that were difficult to kill with the small bores (54 caliber to 62 caliber) found in the USA.
When it comes to a Hawken style patent breech, I have or have had three factory Hawken rifles that have never given a hint of an ignition problem
They are a 1980's Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken,
an Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken, and an Ithica Arms Hawken.
The internal breech breech design of all three are identical. The powder chamber is drilled very deep. The flash hole from the nipple connects to the bottom of the powder chamber at a 90 degree angle.
The length of the flash from the bottom of the nipple to the bottom of the powder chamber is about 5/16 inch. The only right angle turn in this design is the turn under the nipple to the flash hole.
With the exception of the T-C breech plug, the bottom of the powder chamber of the other breech plugs are conical in shape, matching the point of the drill used to drill the powder chamber. The bottom of the T-C powder chamber is a radius shape.
The shorter 5/16" length of the flash hole from the nipple to the powder chamber has got to be a key, maybe the key factor, to the positive ignition of these three particular breech plug.
Recently, the 50 caliber barrel on the Ithica was replaced a 40 caliber GM barrel. Surprise! Surprise! The powder chamber in the breech plug was 1/2" in diameter. The powder chamber had to be sleeved to smaller diameter. Even through this meant increasing the length of the flash hole, ignition still has been positive and fast.
There is something to that old axion about simple designs.
In reference to my ignition problems with my custom breech plug, that problem may now be resolved. This modification idea was borrowed from my Ithica Hawken and some old Hall Sharon breech plugs in my possession.
There is no clean out hole on the bolster of either one of these breeches. The flash hole is drilled from the off side of the bolster, all of the way across the bottom of the powder chamber, ending up just under the nippl. The hole on the offside is then plugged with a set screw or plug welded.
I did the same thing using a set screw. The vent hole in the bolster was re-drilled and tapped for an 8-36 plug screw.
At this time, all ignition problems have stopped, and the fellows who shot on my right no longer complain about this minor disruption of hot gases being sprayed on them.
They kept saying that it was disturbing their concentration.
I, hopefully will try to conclude this dessertation with the next post.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
Liberal/Socialist Politicians LIE!!! USA FREEDOMS DIE.
Dave K., You make some very good points. Many people are not aware that England as well as other European countries were colonizing Africa in a big way. They encountered some VERY BIG animals in Africa that were difficult to kill with the small bores (54 caliber to 62 caliber) found in the USA.
When it comes to a Hawken style patent breech, I have or have had three factory Hawken rifles that have never given a hint of an ignition problem
They are a 1980's Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken,
an Ozark Mountain Arms Hawken, and an Ithica Arms Hawken.
The internal breech breech design of all three are identical. The powder chamber is drilled very deep. The flash hole from the nipple connects to the bottom of the powder chamber at a 90 degree angle.
The length of the flash from the bottom of the nipple to the bottom of the powder chamber is about 5/16 inch. The only right angle turn in this design is the turn under the nipple to the flash hole.
With the exception of the T-C breech plug, the bottom of the powder chamber of the other breech plugs are conical in shape, matching the point of the drill used to drill the powder chamber. The bottom of the T-C powder chamber is a radius shape.
The shorter 5/16" length of the flash hole from the nipple to the powder chamber has got to be a key, maybe the key factor, to the positive ignition of these three particular breech plug.
Recently, the 50 caliber barrel on the Ithica was replaced a 40 caliber GM barrel. Surprise! Surprise! The powder chamber in the breech plug was 1/2" in diameter. The powder chamber had to be sleeved to smaller diameter. Even through this meant increasing the length of the flash hole, ignition still has been positive and fast.
There is something to that old axion about simple designs.
In reference to my ignition problems with my custom breech plug, that problem may now be resolved. This modification idea was borrowed from my Ithica Hawken and some old Hall Sharon breech plugs in my possession.
There is no clean out hole on the bolster of either one of these breeches. The flash hole is drilled from the off side of the bolster, all of the way across the bottom of the powder chamber, ending up just under the nippl. The hole on the offside is then plugged with a set screw or plug welded.
I did the same thing using a set screw. The vent hole in the bolster was re-drilled and tapped for an 8-36 plug screw.
At this time, all ignition problems have stopped, and the fellows who shot on my right no longer complain about this minor disruption of hot gases being sprayed on them.
They kept saying that it was disturbing their concentration.
I, hopefully will try to conclude this dessertation with the next post.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
Liberal/Socialist Politicians LIE!!! USA FREEDOMS DIE.
JOHN L. HINNANT
45 Cal.
- Joined
- May 29, 2004
- Messages
- 711
- Reaction score
- 2
Good Afternoon All,
Coyote Joe's comments and observations about patent breech ignition problems parallel my own experiences, and these problems are not just restricted to the patent breech and/or the cap lock action.
CJ's photos of the Pedersoli and Traditions/CVA breech and drum design illustrate how they are subject to the same ignition problems as the the patent breech. Again, it can attribted to poor engineering design.
I frequently wonder if the manufacturer's of the firearms ever (or even) do any actual product test firing of their muzzle loading firearms.
I am compelled to believe that they do not, or they do not believe the rifles/pistols will be actually shot.
My first experience with ignition problems in a CVA was in 1981. The rifle was the CVA Mountain Rifle with double barrel keys. It belonged to a fellow club member who was having constant ignition problems.
The first remedy was to use the "flush tube" method to completly "flush through the breech/nipple. This helped a great deal, but the gentleman had to "flush" clean the rifle two or three times to get through a full day of match shooting.
The next step was to pull the drum for inspection. There was only a hint of a problem there, but it was visually obivious that the powder chamber past the drum was blocked solid with fouling.
When the breech was pulled, the problem and solution were also immediately obivious. The powder chamber diameter was less than 1/4" in diameter, allowing the burnt black powder to "bridge" over and eventually block the powder chamber.
Since the breech plug threaded tenon was of a larger diameter, the powder chamber diameter was redrilled to a 25/64" diameter. The chamber was enlarged only up to the front edge of the threaded hole for the drum. The plan was to maitain maximum thread engagement for the drum.
The next step was to enlarge the diameter on the flash hole in the drum. Again, this hole was enlarged only up to the front of the nipple hole in order to maximize nipple thread engagement.
From that point on, as long as the "flush tube" method of cleaning was used at the end of the day, this rifle experienced no more ignition problems.
A large number fo CVA's and other rifles have benefited from the same treatment.
It is not only caplocks that are manufactured with this same breech design.
About five years back, my friend Davy purchased a Pedersoli flint lock. It is a nice looking rifle that seems to be well made and shoots well. He had not had the opportunity to shoot it until he made a trip down for a visit.
After a half dozen shots, ignition problems cropped up and continued, until there was no ignition.
The breech design for the Pedersoli flint lock is identical to the cap lock breech in Coyote Joes's photo. In place of a drum, a flint lock touch hole liner is used. This is not a bad idea for production interchangability.
Once again, the problem was the less than 1/4" diameter of the powder chamber. In Davy's case, the powder chamber w3as redrilled to 21/64" diameter to the front edge of the tapped hole for the touch hole liner.
The barrel on this particular rifle is 13/16" across the flats, thus requiring a small diameter breech thread. This small diameter tenon mandates/restricts the largest diameter that the touch hole diameter can be enlarged, in regards to safety.
The same procedure has been applied to a number of Pedersoli cap locks since working on Davy's flint lock.
In the case of the caplocks, it was also necessary to redrill the drum flash hole to a large diameter. This was/is not possible to do unless the the end of the drum threads are removed. Only enough threads are removed to allow this redrilling procedure.
As stated before, the flash hole is enlarged up to the front edge of the the threaded nipple hole.
All of the redrilling work has been done on my metal lathe in order to maintain maximum control of the procedures.
One might ask why the manufacturers use this breech design. In my opinion, it is a lawyer/legal/libility design. The wall thickness of a 45 caliber. 13/16" across the flats barrel has very little thread engagement to hold a drum.
By drilling and tapping into a powder chamber type breech, thread engagement for a drum or touch hole liner is greatly increased.
The procedures that I have described to solve ignition problems are not recommendations for anybody to use. My post are intended only to be informative (not instuctional) as to how I managed to deal with these ignition problems.Anyone who uses my information does so at his/her own risk.
Additionally, one should be aware that ANY unauthorized manufactuter' modification will render null and void the manufactures warranty and libility for that product.
For those shooters who have rifles or pistols with a patent breech and wipe the bore between shots, they should be aware of another possibility
causing ignition problems.
A tight fitting patch will push black powder residue into the powder chamber where not all of it is blown out with the next shoot. Evenually enough residue will accumulate to block the flash hole.
For this reason, I have cleaning jags of various diameters to compensate for different cleaning patch thickness.
And finally, the "flush tube" method is the only clean up procedure that I know of, that will clean out all of the black powder residue through the intricies and turns of a patent breech (and for that matter, the drum and nipple) with little or no disassemmbly of the rifle or pistol.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
Liberal/Socialist Liberals LIE!!! USA FREEDOMS DIE!!!
Coyote Joe's comments and observations about patent breech ignition problems parallel my own experiences, and these problems are not just restricted to the patent breech and/or the cap lock action.
CJ's photos of the Pedersoli and Traditions/CVA breech and drum design illustrate how they are subject to the same ignition problems as the the patent breech. Again, it can attribted to poor engineering design.
I frequently wonder if the manufacturer's of the firearms ever (or even) do any actual product test firing of their muzzle loading firearms.
I am compelled to believe that they do not, or they do not believe the rifles/pistols will be actually shot.
My first experience with ignition problems in a CVA was in 1981. The rifle was the CVA Mountain Rifle with double barrel keys. It belonged to a fellow club member who was having constant ignition problems.
The first remedy was to use the "flush tube" method to completly "flush through the breech/nipple. This helped a great deal, but the gentleman had to "flush" clean the rifle two or three times to get through a full day of match shooting.
The next step was to pull the drum for inspection. There was only a hint of a problem there, but it was visually obivious that the powder chamber past the drum was blocked solid with fouling.
When the breech was pulled, the problem and solution were also immediately obivious. The powder chamber diameter was less than 1/4" in diameter, allowing the burnt black powder to "bridge" over and eventually block the powder chamber.
Since the breech plug threaded tenon was of a larger diameter, the powder chamber diameter was redrilled to a 25/64" diameter. The chamber was enlarged only up to the front edge of the threaded hole for the drum. The plan was to maitain maximum thread engagement for the drum.
The next step was to enlarge the diameter on the flash hole in the drum. Again, this hole was enlarged only up to the front of the nipple hole in order to maximize nipple thread engagement.
From that point on, as long as the "flush tube" method of cleaning was used at the end of the day, this rifle experienced no more ignition problems.
A large number fo CVA's and other rifles have benefited from the same treatment.
It is not only caplocks that are manufactured with this same breech design.
About five years back, my friend Davy purchased a Pedersoli flint lock. It is a nice looking rifle that seems to be well made and shoots well. He had not had the opportunity to shoot it until he made a trip down for a visit.
After a half dozen shots, ignition problems cropped up and continued, until there was no ignition.
The breech design for the Pedersoli flint lock is identical to the cap lock breech in Coyote Joes's photo. In place of a drum, a flint lock touch hole liner is used. This is not a bad idea for production interchangability.
Once again, the problem was the less than 1/4" diameter of the powder chamber. In Davy's case, the powder chamber w3as redrilled to 21/64" diameter to the front edge of the tapped hole for the touch hole liner.
The barrel on this particular rifle is 13/16" across the flats, thus requiring a small diameter breech thread. This small diameter tenon mandates/restricts the largest diameter that the touch hole diameter can be enlarged, in regards to safety.
The same procedure has been applied to a number of Pedersoli cap locks since working on Davy's flint lock.
In the case of the caplocks, it was also necessary to redrill the drum flash hole to a large diameter. This was/is not possible to do unless the the end of the drum threads are removed. Only enough threads are removed to allow this redrilling procedure.
As stated before, the flash hole is enlarged up to the front edge of the the threaded nipple hole.
All of the redrilling work has been done on my metal lathe in order to maintain maximum control of the procedures.
One might ask why the manufacturers use this breech design. In my opinion, it is a lawyer/legal/libility design. The wall thickness of a 45 caliber. 13/16" across the flats barrel has very little thread engagement to hold a drum.
By drilling and tapping into a powder chamber type breech, thread engagement for a drum or touch hole liner is greatly increased.
The procedures that I have described to solve ignition problems are not recommendations for anybody to use. My post are intended only to be informative (not instuctional) as to how I managed to deal with these ignition problems.Anyone who uses my information does so at his/her own risk.
Additionally, one should be aware that ANY unauthorized manufactuter' modification will render null and void the manufactures warranty and libility for that product.
For those shooters who have rifles or pistols with a patent breech and wipe the bore between shots, they should be aware of another possibility
causing ignition problems.
A tight fitting patch will push black powder residue into the powder chamber where not all of it is blown out with the next shoot. Evenually enough residue will accumulate to block the flash hole.
For this reason, I have cleaning jags of various diameters to compensate for different cleaning patch thickness.
And finally, the "flush tube" method is the only clean up procedure that I know of, that will clean out all of the black powder residue through the intricies and turns of a patent breech (and for that matter, the drum and nipple) with little or no disassemmbly of the rifle or pistol.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.
Liberal/Socialist Liberals LIE!!! USA FREEDOMS DIE!!!
However the breech plug and drum (bolster) are not available, stated right in the catalog.
http://www.deercreekproducts.net/store/p89/Hawken_Barrel.html
Last edited by a moderator:
DanLong said:
You are not going to find a replacement parts CVA or Traditions breech and drum anywhere. Due to the method of machining and installing their breech, it can't be replaced. In fact, removal of the breech or drum violates their warranty.
Now, for me the necessary piece of information is why are you looking to replace the breech plug and the drum?
longcruise
70 Cal.
If you twisted the plug out with any part of the drum threads in still in the barrel, you have done some serious damage. :shocked2:
If you have any pictures of the aftermath, a solution may be figgered out.
If you have any pictures of the aftermath, a solution may be figgered out.
