Patent breech plug - why?

[huntinguy]

I was under the impression that the ante chamber was there to keep the initial area of powder from being under so much compression and then also to let the pressure build so that the flame hitting the main charge was hotter and more directed. I think similar results are had by using the convex breech though (kind of like the pac charges used against armor.)

As for oil building up in the ante chamber, or the breech area period... store the rifle on the muzzle not on the butt.

 

[Dphar]

What is the purpose of having a hollow breech plug that is narrower than the bore? My first encounter with one was on my second gun after having learned on a percussion gun that had a whatever you call a breech plug that isn't a patent breech plug. I didn't know about it until the gun wouldn't fire because the breech plug had filled up. When in history did the patent breech plug come along? What is the other kind called? Can a patent breech plug be replaced with the other kind? Can a patent breech plug be ground down flush? I like my guns that the jag can go all the way to the plug when cleaning, but of course, I've learned to deal with the patent breech plug.

The "Patent Breech" was originally the Nock flintlock breech which increased velocity over other designs. ALL good "patent breeches" are stronger than the alternative especially in percussion. Good percussion "patent" breeches protect the shooter from cap fragments and other possible ejecta from the nipple. But not all are properly made. They are also easier to clean. But they DO require more water to wash all fouling from any passages. This is why most are of the "hooked breech" design that allows removing the barrel from the stock.
If the patent breech was full of fouling someone was not cleaning it completely or properly. Once fouling is left in the breech and oiled and then the gun is fired again the fouling can take on the characteristics of asphaltic concrete. And may require removing the breech to clean it out.
If you learn how to clean the rifle properly the patent breech, a good one, is a far better, safer system than the weak and when made of modern materials often dangerous drum and nipple found on most low end guns of the 19th c. and many guns made today.

Dan

 

[pargent]

:thumbsup: :applause:

 

[M. De Land]

Was the Nock system ever employed in rifles or was this a smooth bore refinement only?
The system looks like a nightmare to get thoroughly clean in my not so informed opinion.

 

[LaBonte]

The flint patent breech was adapted to rifles and pistols, including dueling pistols.

Modern patent breeches are almost invariably a bad(nodernized and apparently misunderstood by the engibeers)version of the originals

 

[thecapgunkid]

Zonie, what an enormously valuable post. Thanks. Glad I don't have one of these...

 

[roundball]

LOL...I think this thread could benefit from some real life hands on experience actually using the modern day modified design of a so called 'Patent Breech'.

Personally used them in several T/C caplocks, then several T/C Flintlocks, in several calibers and gauges, with T/C and GM barrels starting back in 1993... .40/.45/.50/.54rifle/.54smoothbore/.58rifle/.62rifle/.62smoothbore...then continued to use them in custom builds over all the years since then.

The first 10-12 years experience with modern designed Patent Breeches in T/C and GM barrels was so fast, maintenance free, outstanding that when I replaced them all with custom made long guns, I had Patent Breech designed breechplugs made for them in Rice and GM barrels...and sure as Heck wouldn't have spent the money if that wasn't the case.

They are simple, fast, and self cleaning from the back blast out the vent channel...50 shot range sessions and never have to do anything with them...no breech scrapers needed, no vent pics needed, etc...don't even own any. Cleaning up after a range trip or hunt is simple with a cleaning patch around a small caliber bore brush like a .32cal...slides down into the reduced diameter powder chamber, etc.

Personally I don't care what anybody uses, but I do care...as all of us should...that actual facts come out in threads like these, instead of hearsay, 'spin', repeating what's been read on other forums, etc, etc.
And 22 years of personal factual experience with 24,000 - 25,000 shots now is that modern designed Patent Breeches of the past 50 years are outstanding, fast, 100% reliable, and simple / easy to clean.


We may now return to our regularly scheduled broadcasting.
:wink:

 

[Dphar]

Was the Nock system ever employed in rifles or was this a smooth bore refinement only?
The system looks like a nightmare to get thoroughly clean in my not so informed opinion.

I built one for this rifle and it works fine.

No issues at all IF GOOD POWDER IS USED. If powder that produces large flakes in the bore is used it will FTF due to flakes of fouling blocking the passageway to the antechamber. But since I use Swiss its not an issue and it will shoot long strings of shots if anything better than a plain breech will.
It is also a recessed breech using a Manton design lock from TRS castings. Its a fast flintllock and perfectly reliable. As with almost all Nocks it has a cleanout but I never use it. Using the water bucket method it cleans perfectly and I only pull the cleanout periodically to assure it still has lube on the threads.

In testing of another I made for Larry Pletcher at blackpowdermagcom it was found that the claims of faster lock time were not true. HOWEVER, it was not "slow" and was more consistent than the other designs. Given that a great many, surely most, were used on shotguns this is very important given that this would allow more hits since changes in time from trigger pull to shot charge exiting the muzzle would effect leads on moving targets.

This illustrates what is meant my "recessed" breech. It allowed double barrel guns to be significantly narrower at the locks and thus slimmer in the wrist as well.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

And 22 years of personal factual experience with 24,000 - 25,000 shots now is that modern designed Patent Breeches of the past 50 years are outstanding, fast, 100% reliable, and simple / easy to clean.


We may now return to our regularly scheduled broadcasting.
:wink:

I like patent breeches but seldom use one on a FL Kentucky.
The "new" designs are not really new. They are simply modern adaptations of English breeches designed back at least as far as the 1750s onward to the end of FL development. There were so many patents (locks, breeches, boring etc) on firearms at times in the late 18th c/early 19th c that there was at least one cartoon lampooning them in the English newspapers. Innovation was important since the high end guns went to landed gentry, peers and members of the royal family etc.
By 1800-1810 the best firearms/firearms designs in the world were coming from England.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I agree that the various designs of patent breeches just complicate a flintlock. Nothing simpler than a flat faced plug and a direct flash hole.

A patent breech on a caplock is certainly an improvement over a drum....Fred

But this is also the least efficient breech. In a shotgun used for wing shooting its not the best choice due to variations in speed of ignition.
I don't use a patent breech on FL Kentuckys except in rare cases. But there are things that can be done to the "plain" breech to give better velocity for example (but its not new and was used by the English perhaps farther back than the American rifle existed. The Nock gives better consistency. So there was a valid reason for the "complexity".
This simple modification will give a significant velocity increase in a 50 cal FL.

See americanlongriflesorg/forum/index.php?topic=32573.0
For some data that might be of use.
Dan

 

[Vaino]

Don't have any experience w/ spherically recessed plug faces...could be that they do produce slightly higher velocities and if I had a mill and a ball cutter, I just might try one. But, I don't and really am quite satisfied w/ a flat faced plug....accuracy is excellent and the velocity is sufficient for my needs. Too bad one of the bbl makers doesn't supply "dished" face breechplugs...I'd have given one e a try. By the way....beautiful rifles......Fred

 

[Dphar]

Don't have any experience w/ spherically recessed plug faces...could be that they do produce slightly higher velocities and if I had a mill and a ball cutter, I just might try one. But, I don't and really am quite satisfied w/ a flat faced plug....accuracy is excellent and the velocity is sufficient for my needs. Too bad one of the bbl makers doesn't supply "dished" face breechplugs...I'd have given one e a try. By the way....beautiful rifles......Fred

Thanks the for complement. There is nothing wrong with a plain breech in a FL and I breech barrels like this. Though I do like vent liners. The other options are just something gun builders need to know of.

Like this, which is also an old design I have seen on English FLs.

It allows setting the locks fence at the breech end of the barrel even with short fence to pan locks or barrels with long breech plugs.
With the cup, if its properly done the threads are all sealed and the same is true of the design pictured here.

Dan

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks Dan, good stuff, the hemisphere plug face is a good idea and if the face shoulder is fit against the bore interior so the plug to barrel transition is smooth, the hemisphere face would clean up better than a flat face plug would in the corners.
I like the hemisphere idea and will start to us it in my guns.
I will face them in my lathe rather than grind a ball cutter for each different caliber.

 

[hanshi]

I've owned, fired and hunted with numerous rifles/(1)smoothbore equipped with patent breeches. They fired just fine and there was no problem cleaning them - including a couple of flinters. There was no excess fouling and no ignition problems. I still have a favorite rifle with a patent breech.

However, all my current flinters are flat breeched and just as reliable as the other cap & flinters that had patent ones. Flat's just the way they came to me and I've never specified one over the other.

I don't know why there's so much controversy over patent breeches as they've always worked fine for me. IMHO both are equal; at least in my experience going back to the 1960s.

 

[Vaino]

I prefer a flat faced plug because of its simplicity when cleaning...many "patent breeches" clean better if the bbl is "dunked" in a bucket of water and many of the "patent breech" MLers do have keys to readily make this possible.

If the "patent breech" bbl isn't "dunked" in a bucket of water, then more time has to be spent ensuring the flash channel isn't clogged. I've seen this clogging w/ some who take "shortcuts".

It's a matter of personal preference whether one uses flintlocks w/ a patent breech or a simple flat faced plug....possibly the "modern mindset" likes a little more complication....albeit w/ an "old idea".....Fred

 

[roundball]

"...If the "patent breech" bbl isn't "dunked" in a bucket of water, then more time has to be spent ensuring the flash channel isn't clogged..."

LOL...it's obvious you have zero first hand knowledge of the 1900's design Patent Breeches...if you did you wouldn't even think about making such a claim.
As has already been stated by people who actually use them / know about them first hand, the actual facts are opposite of such a claim.
I never "dunk" mine to clean them...absolutely no need to do that. They are self cleaning during use...require no vent picking, require no scrapers, and after a range session takes about 30 seconds to clean the powder chamber with a cleaning patch wrapped around a brush smaller than bore size, about 60 seconds to clean the vent channel with a q-tip, done. You wouldn't even have a bucket of water drawn in that time.

Couldn't care less what style breech 'you' personally use, but you continue to do yourself a dis-service by spreading information with no basis in fact.

:wink:

 

[coloradoclyde]

LOL...it's obvious you have zero first hand knowledge of the 1900's design Patent Breeches...if you did you wouldn't even think about making such a claim.

:rotf: I was going to ask about your vast experience, but after reading....

They are self cleaning during use...require no vent picking, require no scrapers, and after a range session takes about 30 seconds to clean the powder chamber with a cleaning patch wrapped around a brush smaller than bore size, about 60 seconds to clean the vent channel with a q-tip, done. You wouldn't even have a bucket of water drawn in that time.

It is obvious you must be a Salesman....because that's a sales pitch if I ever heard one.

Considering that Fred actually builds rifles and breeches barrels instead of just bragging about fancy rifles that he owns that were built by others....
His advice is golden in my book.

 

[coloradoclyde]

22 years of personal factual experience with 24,000 - 25,000 shots now is that modern designed Patent Breeches of the past 50 years are outstanding, fast, 100% reliable, and simple / easy to clean.

Wow! 22 years of experience... :hmm:
Welcome newbie.. :rotf: I had that before you even started...

You sure can brag with the best of them... :haha:

 

[roundball]

Again, attention to reading comprehension will clarify:

22 years of actually using 1900's style Patent Breech plugs.

I deal with facts...not Google searches and keyboard opinions / theory for my answers.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Here's the entire sentence...

And 22 years of personal factual experience with 24,000 - 25,000 shots now is that modern designed Patent Breeches of the past 50 years are outstanding, fast, 100% reliable, and simple / easy to clean.

I can't believe you used factual and 100% reliable in the same sentence....
Anyone with real and comprehensive shooting experience knows that no muzzleloader is 100% reliable. :shake: