Patent screw and fowling

[wolkentanz]

Hello all,

I just need a little help.

I have two different flintlock rifles. The first has a .54 Green Mountain barrel with a patent screw (powder chamber).

With this gun I can shoot a 15 shot series without wipe between the shots. Accuracy is amazing! The load is 60 grn Swiss No 2, .535 ball and a 0.016 patch with moose milk. After these 15 shots I only need 2 patches to clean the barrel.

The second flintlock has also a Green Mountain barrel but caliber is 0.36 without a patent screw!
No wipe between the shots. The first 5 shots are very precise but then the gun loose accuracy! When I wipe after these 5 shots I recognized that a very hard residue is formed 2 inches away from the ground of the barrel. The load is also Swiss 2 (40 grn) .355 round ball, 0.016 moose milk patch.

With a third flintlock rifle with a .50 Getz barrel without patent screw I see the same 'behavior' like the 0.36 GM barrel!

So my question is: Do you also see that there is a difference between barrels with and without a patent screw regarding build up of fowling ?

I think that barrels without a patent screw need a wipe between the shots.

Best regards !

 

[roundball]

Since you posted this in the Flintlock category, and since I'm not familar with the term "patent screw"...are you possibly referring to a breechplug with an internal design that is usually referred to as a "patent breech"?

 

[wolkentanz]

Hello roundball,

you are right. I mean a breech plug with 'internal design'. That means the breech plug has a 'hole' with a diameter which is smaller than caliber.

 

[roundball]

I don't have both type for a comparison, but can say that all mine have patent breeches and operate really clean...using Goex and Hoppes or NL1000 lube I rarely ever wipe between shots at the range, and as an aside never use a vent pick

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've never noticed any difference as relates to the design of the breechplug but I have found some barrels notably easier to clean. I believe it relates to the relative smoothness of the bore and to the load being used. I presently have two flintlocks which are very easy to clean, a .45 caliber, Pedersoli with patent breech and a .50 caliber Green Mountain with a flat faced plug. The wife's new Green Mountain .36 percussion uses a flat faced plug with nipple drum and cleans up OK but does require several more patches than do my flintlocks. I really think it is a case of individual barrels and loads and not something one can pin down to any one specific detail.

 

[thewho66]

Not having shot a patent breech gun I would have to say that the breech might be more self cleaning. I would say that because the powder in the breech area compleatly burns being in a more confined space. But this is all guess work on my part.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yes, you are guessing. Put oil in that powder chamber, or let oil get back into the flashchannel or vent, and you will see how " clean " that chamber burns powder!

You are trying to compare three different calibers, with three different barrels, using some combination of components you " THINK " will or should work in them. MLers are tempermental beasts, on their good days. If you have not measured each bore, and groove diameter of each barrel before buying or making the components for it, you are only guessing at what will work in that gun. And measure those lead balls, to see that they are a similar dimension, and not just what someone says they are on a box, or mold. Changes of as little as .001" can have a large effect on your gun's ability to shoot well.

Also, always remember that relative humidity will dictate what you can shoot, and how often you may have to clean. You cannot shoot the exact same load every day, or in every part of the world, and expect it to perform the same. For example, I get crud build up fairly fast when its cold and DRY here. Its less of a problem when the humidity is high, but then I get a lot of moisture in the barrel from condensation, and that becomes a problem on humid days.

I don't understand your quest to be able to fire these guns without cleaning them. The build up of cake/crud in the one barrel you describe clearly indicates the folly of doing so. YOU may believe that the gun fires each consecutive ball to the same POI, but that is rarely shown to be the actual case when tried at a range, from a bench rest to eliminate human errors. If you are just " Plinking " at short yardage, you can get sloppy about how you load and clean a gun for awhile. But, sooner or later, the crud builds up and you are going to have troubles. Typical problems begin with NOT being able to seat the ball all the way down on the powder.

I don't know what you are talking about when you say " two inches from the ground ", in describing cake buildup in a barrel.

When you work up a load with a particular gun, the Ramrod should be marked to indicate where it sits, when the ball is seated on the powder. From that point on, the PRB should be pushed down the barrel slowly, using a hand over hand method of grabbing the RR, NOT holding the ramrod at the very end and trying to shove the ball down in one stroke!, and the PRB must be loaded TO YOU MARK!

Every time.

The mark tells you if crud is building in the back of the barrel, so you can stop and clean it.

Why? Because the build up of crud changes the dimension of the area that holds the powder, reducing its size. The smaller the chamber where the powder burns, the higher the chamber pressure. When you are using faster burning powder in a gun, the pressure go up faster, to, as you reduce the size of the area. Also, by allowing the ball to be seated further forward, you don't really know what size that chamber will be, since you can't see how much crud has built up, or where, inside the barrel. You may in fact, have a bore obstructed some distance above the powder, and then you risk blowing up your barrel, injuring the shooter, and others around him.

If you want to shoot lots of shots in a short amount of time, PLEASE, PUT AWAY THE MUZZLE LOADERS, and go shooting with a semi-auto .22 rifle instead. There is no shame in wanting to do a little rapid fire blasting some days. Just don't do it with your MLer. A MLer is a gun designed for slow, deliberate thinking as you clean and load the gun for each shot. Because you don't have a " quick second shot", its intended to be shot carefully, with rifle AIMED at their targets, and shot-guns pointed at theirs.

Have fun. But remember that these kinds of guns have been around for more than 500 years. You are not going to re-invent the wheel, so don't even try. YOu will be safer, and a lot happier that way. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Not having shot a patent breech gun I would have to say that the breech might be more self cleaning. I would say that because the powder in the breech area compleatly burns being in a more confined space. But this is all guess work on my part.

You're right on the money...a patent breech sort of design leaves no accumulaiton of anything I've ever seen, seems 100% self cleaning...I wasn't exaggerating when I said I never use a vent pick.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't understand your quest to be able to fire these guns without cleaning them. The build up of cake/crud in the one barrel you describe clearly indicates the folly of doing so. YOU may believe that the gun fires each consecutive ball to the same POI, but that is rarely shown to be the actual case when tried at a range, from a bench rest to eliminate human errors. If you are just " Plinking " at short yardage, you can get sloppy about how you load and clean a gun for awhile. But, sooner or later, the crud builds up and you are going to have troubles. Typical problems begin with NOT being able to seat the ball all the way down on the powder.

That's a pile of bull. I've never had a flint muzzleloader that I couldn't shoot all day with out ever running a patch down the barrel. With the proper ball size and lube you can shoot all day.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Agreed, I don't believe I've ever tried to shoot actually "all day" but often fire 25-30 shots without cleaning and the only change I notice is a very gradual raising of the ball seat. Every time one rams a patched ball down bore that patch is wiping the bore and it is what is called "one shot dirty". With a thick patch which can hold a lot of fouling and a good lube, such as spit, I never consider swabbing the bore during a typical rendezvous shoot of 15-20 shots. I have no doubt that could continue all day if I felt inclined to shoot all day.

 

[thewho66]

Paul when replying to a post use qoutes or replie to each one seperatly please, at first read It looked like a overall attack on me. As to cleaning between shots I do that as needed when resistance seems to be more than I care to deal with. With new barrels that could be every shot with older and seasoned barrels that could be 10-15 shots. As to end of the day cleaning I use hot water a brush and about 4 cleaning patchs to get the crud out followed by 2-3 dry patchs to get the water out, then bore butter to lube the bore for storage. Thanks and have a good day all.

 

[Black Hand]

I don't understand your quest to be able to fire these guns without cleaning them. The build up of cake/crud in the one barrel you describe clearly indicates the folly of doing so. YOU may believe that the gun fires each consecutive ball to the same POI, but that is rarely shown to be the actual case when tried at a range, from a bench rest to eliminate human errors. If you are just " Plinking " at short yardage, you can get sloppy about how you load and clean a gun for awhile. But, sooner or later, the crud builds up and you are going to have troubles. Typical problems begin with NOT being able to seat the ball all the way down on the powder.

That's a pile of bull. I've never had a flint muzzleloader that I couldn't shoot all day with out ever running a patch down the barrel. With the proper ball size and lube you can shoot all day.

Ditto!

 

[roundball]

If I ever have to wipe a bore during a 50 shot weekend range session its because I wasn't paying attention to the humidity / lube relationship for that particular range trip....but normally its 50 shots and go back to the house.