PC correct gun

[Tahquamenon]

Uh oh an editorial

 

[Claude Mathis]

No one intends any personal insult when he acknowledges the very substantial differences between a hand made rifle and a factory mass produced gun.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but some people can't separate their possessions from their personal identity. They get insulted if you say anything about their "stuff".

My first "rendezvous tent" was far from PC and I was told this by several people and after a little research, sure enough, they were correct. Did I hold it against them for pointing this out to me? Certainly not. Perhaps it didn't bother me because I didn't identify that tent with who I am. I wanted to learn the truth about the gear. I used the tent for a few more years until I could obtain something better.

Unlike some people, some of us appreciate being corrected about our pursuit of historical accuracy. Every-time someone helps me make a better choice, I am in their debt. This may be the difference between people with the thirst for knowledge and others who may have a chip on their shoulder, just waiting for someone to criticize their choices.

I've been told on this Forum that my flintlock is, "a little too fancy" and "possibly of a later period" than my chosen persona. There are two ways for me to deal with those comments.

1. I can take offense and spew the "Damn those PC Nazis" rhetoric.
2. I can do further research to ascertain if in deed they are correct.

I choose the latter because I want to be as accurate as I can with my persona. After I find the answer for myself, I still have choices.

1. Say the hell with it and use it anyway.
2. See about getting a weapon that better fits my persona.
3. Change my persona to fit my rifle.
4. Get a better rifle for my current persona and develop a new persona based on my current rifle.

Those choices will be mine alone to make. Nobody is forcing me to do anything.

Along those same lines, if there are those who don't give a hoot about being "historically accurate" and they just want to "shoot a muzzleloader", then that is perfectly alright too. Nobody cares!

 

[Tahquamenon]

Claude,

Great post! :thumbsup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Are we debating two separate issues?

Nobody is saying you have to reenact history. Many people shoot muzzleloaders all your life and never reenact. It

 

[oomcurt]

I think it may be best to clarify my interests before I get shot here. My views only pertain to fur trade rondevous. As far as interest in a rifle as a historic object..I have none. I do have an interest as to whether it will fit in a non-juried event and will it work for me in the field. I can see where in a reinactment event or something of the kind involving a military force, that more strict adhereance is necessary. Same thing with fur trade era clothing...I have kind of come to the conclusion that I will go with a half-breed type of attire. Part native american and part white man. God..I hope that no one has some issues with that kind of mix. At least as far as what indian tribe would wear what in a mix like that.

 

[loophole]

Tahq, I'll tell you a true storey which may answer some of your questions. Back in the late 70's a fellow named John Bivens was one of the most knowledegable historians in the country in the area of Colonial era firearms, and also one of the best rifle builders alive. He and a fellow named Joe Scorsone--also a great builder--decided no one was building hardware that was proper for Rev War era guns--there was plenty of stuff for Golden Age or federal period guns, but nothing right for a gun built in Lancaster county in 1770. The had patterns made from originals and produced some beautiful buttplates, guards, thimbles, etc. which they sold in brass and also in steel. About that time a Kentucky builder named Hershel House was getting famous for making "Virginia" style rifles, which looked a lot like Pennsylvania rifles, but with hand forged steel hardware. I really liked Hershel's rifles but have no blacksmithing ability, so making my own furniture was not an option.
I built a Lancaster rifle off a pattern John and Joe made from an Issiac Haynes original, and used Biven's steel
hardware, never suspecting that a master like John would put out non-PC stuff. My Lancaster is a fine looking rifle, if I do say so myself. I've won matches with it, and I've slept in the snow with it rolled up in my bedroll, and I've carried it to numerous rendezvous and rifle frolics. I wouldn't take a war pension for the gun, but it wouldn't be accepted at any really strict reenactment because no one can document cast steel (or iron) furniture on an American long rifle.
There was forged steel furniture in the south, and in the percussion era iron furniture was cast, as on a Hawken.
Why did a master historian and builder such as Bevins make and use non PC components? I never asked him--I didn't know enough back then to ask--but I've been told he wasn't trying to recreate exact copies, and sometimes admitted he built guns that he would have built had he lived 200 years ago.
Now, would I be insulted if I went to a juried reenactment and someone told me my Lancaster wasn't proper? No, they are trying to recreate the appearance of a particular era,
and these details are important to them. I think it would be my job to read and ask questions and do my best to fit in before I showed up for inspection.
I haven't been to a rendevous in years, but I'll bet none of them have any requirements for strick authenticity--I used to see TC's and CVA's all the time, and I never saw anyone treated poorly because of his rifle, just like no one at a rendevous ever commented on my steel furniture, except a few times when a really knowledgable shooter asked politely if any of the originals used it.
You have to decide for yourself how much commitment you want to make. No one is born knowing how to recognize the style and archetecture of F&I was era rifles as opposed to golden age. If the difference is not of any interest to you, that's fine, most of the really good people I know have no desire to learn these details. If you do want to know, either from an interest in reenacting, or from an interest in the evolution of the rifles, you can't just buy one book or watch one installment of the History Channel and learn what you need to know.
There is no way to rate builders on a scale of "comparative PC". Any good builder can build a rifle that only an expert can tell you is not an original, if that's what you want. Those of us who are strictly amatures can build a gun that is very close if we put enough time and effort into it. Chambers' kits are excellent, and the parts are very authentic, but even if you have a master build his Lancaster kit, the gun won't get you into Claude's F&I war reenactment--a tourist would never spot the difference but to a knowledgible person it would look as out of place as an M-16 on Normandy beach.
There is critism that "eliteist" shooters denigrate TC's because they are cheap and the eliteist shoots want to keep out those who can't afford an expensive gun. The truth is that the price of the gun is minor compared to the investment of time and energy required to learn about the technology and economics and culture that produced the American long rifle. If you really are interested, you'll cut corners somewhere, find the money and spend the time you need to buy the right gun.

Now, this is what I have to say on the subject, and I will say no more.

 

[roundball]

Roundball, I'm going to make one more attempt, in a spirit of harmony among shooters, to make this point. No one intends any personal insult when he acknowledges the very substantial differences between a hand made rifle and a factory mass produced gun. You sound like a member of some minority group complaining to a federal regulator when you accuse folks of being condescending just because they don't show your enthusiasm for TC's.
No one is passing judgment on you when they say a TC is not a reproduction of a historic firearm. If you have encountered condescension or snobbery from other shooters when you bring your TC to the range that is unfortunate. If what really happened is that you bought the thing and expected to be accepted among shooters whose interest is in historic firearms, then you made a serious error in judgment--sort of like a man showing up at a Harley rally on a Honda.

Not sure where you're coming from by 'trying this point one more time'...but you can't read my mind and you're assessment couldn't be more wrong.

My posts were on the interesting habits of people who make unsolicited comments that attempt to set them above others...the focus was that they would even make such comments...not on the actual aspects of what people shoot or not.

I do what I do for me...not for you or anybody else...really couldn't care less what you or others decide to shoot, wear, make, sleep in, etc...I shoot my Flintlocks on the weekends throughout the year, and then fill all my deer tags with them in the fall...they do exactly everything I hoped they would do...life is good !

eace:

 

My posts were on the interesting habits of people who make unsolicited comments that attempt to set them above others...the focus was that they would even make such comments...not on the actual aspects of what people shoot or not.

Using a quote from a "friend" of mine, and posted not too long ago, :winking: ....(Quote) "I'm assuming you didn't mean it this way, but IMO, even this statement can come across as condescending...sounds like "labeling" which is rarely ever a good thing, and being spoken as an absolute implies that people make one decision and forever more live at that plateau." eace:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[roundball]

I certainly did not mean to appear condescending. Simply put, I was pointing out that not everyone has an interest in being historically accurate and for those who do not the mass produced and much less expensive firearms are quite acceptable. It in no way is meant to be insulting or condescending. Different people have different requirements and the standard machine made guns serve a valid purpose. And so do the carefully crafted, handmade and more expensive pieces.

Sorry Russ...guess I took it too literally
eace:

 

[leslie]

Amen!! I love to shoot sidelock muzzleloaders flint and percussion.I am an amateur historian,but I don't reenact,there is no way I am ever going to sleep in a tent of any description ever again.I do go to Rendy's that are pretty laid back and enjoy them.My take on being traditional is if that is what floats your boat have at it but allow the rest of us to enjoy ourselves too.If the event is not to your liking stay away or if some one offends you walk away,life is just too short.