PC French and Indian 20/.62?

[Thomas Dermako]

I'm in the process of saving for a smoothbore - the question is, which type? I'm looking for a gun that would have been used as a game getter in New York area circa 1740. I'm confused about all the different types and configurations and could use a pointer in the right direction.

 

[Mike Brooks]

An English export fowling gun of various grade, a NW gun, possibly a Carolina gun. Then there is the french stuff. A TVLLE, a french fowling gun of various grades.
The difficult part of your quest is finding one today that is built correctly. They are out there , you just have to know where to look. :wink:
Also, it depends on what part of New York and whether or not you're in contact with French or English traders.

 

[PvtC]

The lock is the tough part for a 1740 civilian arm. I would look for something with a conspicuous banana profile to the plate and probably round faced. Should also be musket size at about 7 inches long. A Rifle Shoppe early Dutch musket lock would be spot on for NY. Such a lock would probably preclude the possibility of a precarved stock. It ain't gonna be cheap and it won't happen fast!! A Carolina gun or a Tulle would probably be easier to get together with consideration of component sourcing.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I see Mike Brooks has a Carolina gun in 20 ga. on his website. You can see it by clicking on his profile and then following the link to his website.

 

[rich pierce]

20 ga would be all right for trade guns but fowlers and muskets would be larger, 16-12 ga.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Do searches on the likes of : New England Club Butt Fowler and Hudson Fowler (Valley/River, not the Bay). I believe Larry Williams of Early Rustic Arms was producing some nice, plain fowlers of that period. Good militia arms, too.

[url] http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/pricesanddescriptions.htm[/url]

A friend has one of his Club Butt Fowlers and it handles a LOT better that it looks like it would.

I had a 16 bore 1758 Light Infantry Fusil from Kit Ravenshear (which, like a dummy, I sold - but for slightly more than I paid for it. ;-) ). That was a good F&I War piece and a dandy all-around musket.

 

[scroggwe]

I just recently purchased a fowler from TOTW. It is a 20 gauge. Is this a correct gauge for a fowler from the 1760 - 1790 era? Here is a link to the gun; [url] http://www.trackofthewolf.com...catId=12&subId=81&styleId=284&partNum=AAE-606[/url] I haven't recieved it yet. It should be here in about a week.

 

[jasontn]

larry williams does have some nice guns, i spent a lot of time on the phone with him when i was looking for my parts set. he has about a year to 15 month waiting period on finished guns and around 30 to 45 days for his kits. he dosent build in the white guns anymore and now uses primarily chambers line of locks instead of LR due to some changes in LR company service. his stuff isnt exactly pc, but it is very good work and price wise.

 

[rich pierce]

There was a lot of variability from place to place and through time and depending on the purpose of the gun. The 20 ga is in the mix in that era.

 

[Stumpkiller]

IMHO that one's leaning more towards a "smooth rifle", but that's not a bad thing. There were a lot of "buck & ball" pieces used by militia and the civilian folk of the time. Kind of an assemblage - French fusil front sight, Trade gun barrel, PA sideplate, Germanic lock.

Extremely practical smoothbore. Nothing went to waste in the early Americas and I guess it could have been. The bore size is one I would like myself in that type of gun. And you can't go wrong with a large Siler lock.

 

[scroggwe]

Thank you Rich & Stumpkiller for your responses. Stumpkiller, this gun would be considered a "smooth rifle"? I thought a smooth rifle usually had a rear sight. Would this style of gun have been carried by someone from Virginia or North Carolina during the 1760 to 1790 time period? Just curious. I don't reenact, but wanted a gun similar to what my 4th great grandfather would have carried in Wake County, North Carolina in the late 18th Century.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

I think we're dealing with a couple of questions here. For the 1740's I'd stay with a fowling piece or if your a man of wealth, The William Turvey rifle or a Jaeger would be a good choice. If you go with a fowler, get Tom Grinsdale's book on Colonial Fowlers for an idea and get a quality builder to build what you want. Mr. Brooks would be a good place to start looking. A siler lock would not work for that time period. I think they were a recreation of a rev. War era gun. That being said I've been to a number of F & I war era events and seen a number of firearms with a siler lock and no ones been kicked out for having one. If you're reenacting the one downside to the siler style locks is that it takes a bit of work to get a flashguard to fit on one. Most events make it mandatory to have one on your gun for safety purposes.
Bill, you will be happy with the gun made by Bobby Christian. He makes a quality gun at a fair price. I've owned a couple made by his son Greg and they had help and guidence from Jack Garner. If you are looking at picky PC, your gun should probably have brass mountings. The siler style lock may date to the 1760s but more than likely the 1770's. Some of that stuff is hard to nail to an exact date. At any rate enjoy the fowler it will make a fine hunting gun.

 

[scroggwe]

Thank you Tommy for your response. I just checked TOTW website and the gun is due here this Wednesday by UPS. Sorry Verdigris, for hijacking your thread.

 

[BCarp]

The settled areas of NY colony in 1740 all had a heavy Dutch influence. I'm I fellow Yorker, and I have a commercial-grade English fowler, but if I had to do it over again I'd go with some type of Dutch fowler or musket. NY was one of the provinces that bought up a bunch of Dutch M1706 muskets:

 

[Thomas Dermako]

Geez, with such a wealth of info I'm almost more confused! Seriously, I live/hunt in the lower Hudson Valley and want a gun that will represent the hunters of the period in question. I plan to use it for solo trekking, so the only judge of pc is me. However, I do want a fairly accurate representation of the period as well as a good sparker. What makes it worse, as some have pointed out, is that this was the front door of the colonies at that time - everyone came through here and consequently there seem to have been numerous types of guns/variations used here.
Both Mike Brooks and ERA are sites that I've visited before and both appear to produce quality work. I guess I'm more concerned with type of gun. BTW, I thought trade guns were later - late 18th - early 19th cent.? And what exactly IS a smooth rifle, other than a contradiction ?

 

[longshot47]

Verdegris-
That [smoothrifle] would be a smoothbore longarm with most of the attributes, architecture and fittings of a rifle, i.e. -cheekpiece, rear sight, maybe patchbox etc.. Calibers might trend to the smaller side; all-in-all, a pretty nice shootin iron...IMO
~Longshot

 

[BCarp]

Seriously, I live/hunt in the lower Hudson Valley and want a gun that will represent the hunters of the period in question.

Well then, heck! The distinctive "Hudson Valley Fowler" is the way to go!

As mentioned in an earlier post, you can get one from[url] http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/gungallery14.htm[/url]

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Yep,

I'd agree on the Hudson Valley fowler as well. I still recomend buying Tom Grinsdale's book on Colonial fowers. It has a ton of great photos and will help you in your search. You can get it in paperback for 38.00 from Scurlock Publishing and probably any other vendor that handles such items. Most quality builders are going to have a wait period so talk to a few and get on the list. That will give you time to make your final decisions and save some money to buy what you want. As far as the trade guns go, European colonies were trading firearms to the native folks much earlier than the 1740's in various forms. The later gun you are refering to is the Northwest Trade gun which had minor changes over the years such as lock style and barrel length. I understand about the being confused part but hey that's what we're here for :blah: :blah: Good luck on getting the fowler. Buy a good one from a reputable builder and you will always be happy with your purchase.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Hudson Valley Fowlers were a pretty specific use type of gun. Barrels 14 to 9 or 8 bore and usually 5 to 6 feet long. They were made to shoot flocks waterfowl sitting on the water. Most had reasonable weight, 10 or 11 lbs. Some of the larger guns that were used on a rest weighed 20lbs or more.
I've probably built 1/2 dozen of these over the years, with barrels from 50" to60". I have a 72" barrel in a piece of maple just waiting to get put on the bench and built into a Hudson Valley Fowler.
Here's one I did a few years ago. 60" 16ga barrel by Bob Hoyt Chambers lock. Brass castings by Reeves Goehring.

There are more pictures of that gun here:
HUDSON VALLY FOWLER

 

[BCarp]

Here are some pics and a description of an original Hudson Valley (this one has a 48" bbl in .70 cal). Scroll down:
[url] http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms.htm[/url]