PC French and Indian 20/.62?

[paulvallandigham]

Verdigris: If you are insisting on a pre-1760 style fowler, you are going to have to use a bore size larger than 20 gauge. 14, 12, 10, and even 8 bores were the order of the day for reasons already stated. Only you can decide how long a barrel you want on your gun. If this is going to sit in a display case, then maybe one of those 6 foot long barrels that Mike Brooks likes would be just the ticket for you. If you really are going to trek with it, You might want to keep the length of the barrel down to something reasonable. Depending on gauge you choose, the balance of the fowler becomes the most critical, in deciding barrel length. It also depends if you are trying to replicate some kind of military role, or simply be a country gentleman, out hunting whatever he might find. The longer barreled guns were used by the gentlemen, primarily because they could afford them. Working class men bought what they could afford, and tended to use shorter barrels. Canoe guns might have barrels as short at 24 inches, although 30"" and 36" are and were common.

I had the chance to examine and handle an original DB 12 gauge shotgun made in the Tower Armory in London, dated 1778, I believe, that had 36 inch barrels. At the time, there were only two or three long rifles in my gun club with barrels that long or longer, and no one had a shotgun with 36" barrels! I was suspecting it to be terribly muzzle heavy, but in fact, it was balanced between the hands, and handled as well as any modern made, high grade double I have ever shot.

You are trying to replicate a gun used 40 years or so before that example was made, so I suspect that you might prefer a barrel that is 42 or 44" long. Its really going to depend on how thick the barrel is at the muzzle, and how much the buttplate weighs, to provide a counterbalance. The buttplate on that Tower shotgun was nearly 3 inches wide, and made of thick brass. Its weight no doubt contributed to the fine balance of the gun.

 

[akapennypincher]

That there is one tall gun, did you build them a Loading Stool to Stand on for Pouring Powder Down the Barrel, and Loading. Think that is the L O N G E S T Muzzleloader I have ever seen.... :hmm:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Paul, I must say this is the stinkiest load of BS I've read in a while! :haha:

Verdigris: If you are insisting on a pre-1760 style fowler, you are going to have to use a bore size larger than 20 gauge. 14, 12, 10, and even 8 bores were the order of the day for reasons already stated. Only you can decide how long a barrel you want on your gun. If this is going to sit in a display case, then maybe one of those 6 foot long barrels that Mike Brooks likes would be just the ticket for you. If you really are going to trek with it, You might want to keep the length of the barrel down to something reasonable. Depending on gauge you choose, the balance of the fowler becomes the most critical, in deciding barrel length. It also depends if you are trying to replicate some kind of military role, or simply be a country gentleman, out hunting whatever he might find. The longer barreled guns were used by the gentlemen, primarily because they could afford them. Working class men bought what they could afford, and tended to use shorter barrels. Canoe guns might have barrels as short at 24 inches, although 30"" and 36" are and were common.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Think that is the L O N G E S T Muzzleloader I have ever seen....[/b] :hmm:

Also, like ALL of Mike's work, one of the most historically correct. Nice work Mike.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike : I think you make the best looking long barreled guns I have seen made by anyone. If that is " stinky" I guess I am guilty. This man is saving his money to buy a decent fowler of the 1740 period,
but he also wants it to use in trekking. Hauling one of those long barreled guns around is likely to get it dinged up, more so than when using a shorter barrel. That is just plain simply logic, and the laws of physics. My Trombone got more dents than my brother's Baritone Horn. maneuvering that slide on the trombone around was aways a concern, particularly in crowds, but it was good practice for me to later move through thick woods and brush carrying my 39 inch barreled Poor Boy.

That is why I recommended he consider a 42 or 44 inch barrel for his fowler. He did indicate that historical correctness was less important than having a reliably functining gun. In Grinslades book, at page 23, he discusses barrel lengths and notes that barrel made from 1660 to 1750 had barrels that varied from 42.5" to 50 inches, with an average at 45 inches. Dutch guns had barrels of about 4 feet( 48 inches) Hudson valley guns favored long barrels of 6 feet( 72 inches) for shooting waterfowl. Trekking is not shooting waterfowl.

I know you also make some fine fowlers with barrel lengths of 42, and 44 inches. Because Jim Rackham has one of your fowlers, and is using it to hunt grouse in New York, I thought of that gun, and that is why I mentioned choosing a shorter barreled gun than that 6 foot one you are pictured with.

As to caliber or gauge, The early fowlers were larger, from 70 to 80 caliber. It was in the 18th century that bore size came down to 60 to 70 caliber, according to his quoted sources.

You might consider sending me PM to tell me just exactly I said that you think " Stinks". He says you have to look to the last half of the 18th century to find New England and Kentucky fowlers that used the smaller bores. The " last half " means 1750 to me, not 1740. I don't mind taking shots from you or anyone else, when I am wrong, or have somehow insulted someone. But, I was trying to answer this man's question based on a review of Grinslade's book," Flintlock Fowlers ", which coveres fowling pieces from 1700 to 1820. NO insult to you was intended or extended. Take the chip off your shoulder, Mike.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I wasn't insulted, nor do I have a chip on my shoulder, I just didn't agree with your advice in a couple areas, none of them having anything to do with barrel length. I'm on my way out the door for a diner engagement, I'll get back to this tonight or tomorrow morning. And, by "stinky" I meant no personal insult to you either, as I like and respect you, but it probably sounded disrespectful over the internet. :hatsoff: My apologies Sir.

 

[Dphar]

I'm in the process of saving for a smoothbore - the question is, which type? I'm looking for a gun that would have been used as a game getter in New York area circa 1740. I'm confused about all the different types and configurations and could use a pointer in the right direction.

The proper variant Brown Bess would be a good choice. Or some milita type gun.
Or something made of Bess parts of the proper era would be good too. I admit to being largely ignorant of the Bess variations, its outside my field of interest.

A rifle is an option unless you just must have a smoothbore.
"Last summer I raised 500 foot, fifty riflemen, 800 indians wch is a vast Charge..."
Governor Dongan of New York to the Governor of Pennsylvania, 30 March 1688
Chapter 6 of "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by DeWitt Bailey.
By 1740 the British ordnance records first mention rifles.
By the 1740s rifles were more common in Indian hands than many Europeans were comfortable with in PA and Western New York.
But we have no hard evidence as to what an American rifle of the time looked like. But a short barreled (24" and up) English fowler with a full octagonal barrel in .62-.75 would be correct based on an Officers rifle circa 1750 by Griffin in Bailey's book. A 1776 Officers rifle is stocked in nearly the same fashion so things were not changing much.

IIRC The Rifle Shoppe has early Brown Bess lock castings. This could be a basis for a generic smoothbore with a bess lock and barrel.

Dan

 

[Mike Brooks]

First off the entire question is difficult to answer. 1740 is very early and we have few examples of 1740 fowling guns to go by, let alone easy access to modern day parts to build them from.
Now to the question of bore size. Cruising through Grinslade's book would give you the impression that all mid century colonial made smooth bored fowling guns had large bores. Well, that's probably true for the most part as they were built to shoot flocks of waterfowl sitting on the water. This was a common hunting technique for market hunters as well as farmers feeding their family.
The Kentucky fowler...taking another look in Grinslade's book we find the KY fowler to be a much later gun and much short barreled as well as smaller bored. They also are quite a bit later. And you'll notice they nearly all have rear sights. These were guns with a totally different intended use then the large bored wildfowling guns.
Grinslade covers COLONIAL BUILT fowling guns and mentions in passing guns imported from over seas. England is where most of the smooth bored fowling guns were coming from. They could build them cheaper and ship them to the colonies and sell them cheaper than the colonial smiths could make them in their own shops. These export grade fowling guns had barrels 42" to 48" long, had bores in the 24ga to 16ga. range, some probably up to and around 10ga.. These were light weight guns and well made. Then their were the guns the French were importing that were being traded in NY. They fall in the same general description as the English guns. The French were also importing guns from other large armsmaking centers in Europe, Liege comes to mind.
Brown Bess' are out as they were property of the King. If you were issued one for military service you were expected to give it back when your enlistment was up. An Englishman may have been carrying a French military musket won in battle, but battlefield pick ups are getting to be a tired old scenario.
Rifles....Don't even want to go there as we don't have a clue. We know they were being used , but don't have any idea what they looked like. The English officers rifle by Griffin is a real beauty, but extremely rare and very expensive and not likely to be seen in colonial hands other than a high ranking British officer.
So there you have it. The world through my eyes. Take it for what it's worth. I'd go with and english fowler in 16 or 20 ga or a french fowler in the same bore. The barrel should be 42" to 48" and the stock should be walnut. Probably brass mounts would be best. You could also go with a restocked french gun if you have to go with curly maple.

 

[BillinOregon]

Mr. Brooks: WOW! Gorgeous!

 

[Thomas Dermako]

I'd go with and english fowler in 16 or 20 ga or a french fowler in the same bore. The barrel should be 42" to 48" and the stock should be walnut. Probably brass mounts would be best. You could also go with a restocked french gun if you have to go with curly maple.

This sounds about right to me - I wasn't considering a Bess because, frankly, they're a bit ungainly to carry all day and I just prefer 20 ga. It didn't occur to me that they were Crown property, but of course that makes perfect sense.As far as rifles, I have a well-made but NOT pc Hawken (w/modern sights) that serves me well. Some sort of export gun, plain but functional and put together well, will suit me fine. I plan on taking it afield in all weathers - no closet queens for me. However, since a pc Hudson gun seems purpose-built for flocks of waterfowl, perhaps I should rethink purchasing one - I'm more of a casual pot-hunter. Thanks to everyone for the info - it is greatly appreciated by this novice.

 

[BCarp]

Now to the question of bore size. Cruising through Grinslade's book would give you the impression that all mid century colonial made smooth bored fowling guns had large bores. Well, that's probably true for the most part as they were built to shoot flocks of waterfowl sitting on the water. This was a common hunting technique for market hunters as well as farmers feeding their family.

Great info, Mike...!

Another reason for the larger bore sizes is that many militia statutes mandated "musket bore" for arms considered acceptable for militia use. Remember, enrollment in the militia was required by law for most able-bodied men. Since most militiamen could not afford two long guns - one for hunting, one for militia use - they opted for the so-called "fowler muskets." These dual-purpose arms were lighter and slimmer than military muskets, so nice to carry for hunting, but big-bored to meet militia requirements. Many even had forends cut back to accept socket bayonets.
Jim Chambers sells a kit for one of these which he calls a "New England Fowler/Militia Musket."

 

[PvtC]

The standard barrel profile of the Chambers Mark Silver fowler does not allow for the use of a socket bayonet. Barbie recommended a plug bayonet. To make this kit work with an 18th century socket bayonet I have ordered a 48 inch barrell with a .925 straight section at the muzzle.

 

[Mike Brooks]

The standard barrel profile of the Chambers Mark Silver fowler does not allow for the use of a socket bayonet. Barbie recommended a plug bayonet. To make this kit work with an 18th century socket bayonet I have ordered a 48 inch barrell with a .925 straight section at the muzzle.

Or, you could cut off 4" and get to the straight part like I did this one. You would have to cut the wood back another 4" but that was done back in the day all the time to convert to military use.
This one now has a 42" barrel instead of a 46"

 

[J.D.]

Another reason for the larger bore sizes is that many militia statutes mandated "musket bore" for arms considered acceptable for militia use. - they opted for the so-called "fowler muskets." These dual-purpose arms were lighter and slimmer than military muskets, so nice to carry for hunting, but big-bored to meet militia requirements. Many even had forends cut back to accept socket bayonets.

I had the opportunity to handle an original "militia musket" at the CLA show this year. It had the typical bess architecture and thick butt, but was made much lighter. It felt and handled like a light fowling piece. I think the bore was something near 65 cal.

I would have bought it if the old lady wasn't around to give me that look. She thinks I have too many guns. Can't have too many. One can only have too many guns to fit into the gun safe.

She places more value on running water and electricity than historic arms. Women have a strange a sense of what constitutes misplaced priorities. :rotf:

 

[PvtC]

The standard barrel profile of the Chambers Mark Silver fowler does not allow for the use of a socket bayonet. Barbie recommended a plug bayonet. To make this kit work with an 18th century socket bayonet I have ordered a 48 inch barrell with a .925 straight section at the muzzle.

Or, you could cut off 4" and get to the straight part like I did this one. You would have to cut the wood back another 4" but that was done back in the day all the time to convert to military use.
This one now has a 42" barrel instead of a 46"

Neat
This approach appropriatley decorated and with a walnut stock could also be a kick #*& officer's fusil :hatsoff:

 

[rsblack]

I would like to make the barrel cal 71 and 60inch long,Pls,can you write me how thick is the barrel at the muzzle?Thanks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

This long a barrel is a custom order deal. The muzzle can be as wide, or " Thick " as you want it to be. The total length of that gun will be about 7 feet long, I hope you realize. That is far longer than most men are tall.

Why a .71 Caliber? Are you talking a rifle, or smoothbore? A .72 Caliber would allow you to use a lot of easily available 12 gauge wads and RBs.

 

[PvtC]

2 millimeters thick at the muzzle should be safe and not too heavy.

 

[rsblack]

This long a barrel is a custom order deal. The muzzle can be as wide, or " Thick " as you want it to be. The total length of that gun will be about 7 feet long, I hope you realize. That is far longer than most men are tall.

Why a .71 Caliber? Are you talking a rifle, or smoothbore? A .72 Caliber would allow you to use a lot of easily available 12 gauge wads and RBs.

I have a half-finished barrel,it is smothbore cal.71 and 7mm thick.

 

[rsblack]

2 millimeters thick at the muzzle should be safe and not too heavy.

Thanks,I hoped 1,5mm is good tour BB has 1,5mm at the muzzle and no problem.