Yes, I agree that would work in a steady target shooting situation, but doesn't tend to hold good whilst out moving around hunting. If the intention is to keep the powder to some degree away from the touch hole, then with time and movement I find it will tend to level out and spread out into the void.
Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket - Review
- Thread starter Rob Dorsey
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Alden said:
Why is that then? :hmm:
Dick Lane said:
I shimmed mine under the tang with some greased card to just lift the vent in relation to the pan.
B.
Why do you say that?Alden said:
Hodgdon, the maker of Pyrodex clearly says, and I quote them:
"Flintlock: To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex."
Personally I would rather use 3Fg powder but there can be no mistaking that they tell people to use a starting charge of real black powder under the main powder charge.
http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html
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Rob Dorsey
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Guys,
Damn I hate to be the class know-it-all (I don't) but in real life I'm a physicist and working out problems with interacting systems, in the immortal words of Father Guido Sarduci, "is'a my beat." I've long worried that other shooters don't realize how delicate and close to disaster the black powder firearm is every time we loose a round.
Ballistics is not my field but I have access to enough data that I am able to "run the numbers" tomorrow and publish the equations for any interested. The problem stems from the chance of the so called priming powder mixing with the main charge and therefore grossly altering the burn rate for the entire charge.
Worse is the following: The safety of the black powder system relies on a known burn rate for the powder used and corresponding pressure peak and curve for that powder. The problem scenario goes like this: I fire the lock and the 4gr of #ffffg that I've used for "priming" under the main charge goes off with a pop, burning much faster than the #ffg main charge. That pop produces a corresponding volume of gas which, if large enough, could displace the main charge and the ball/shot load up the barrel a bit. Now, if that bit is large enough to allow the main charge a place to shove some gas pressure as the burn propagates through the stack thereby creating a pressure shock wave that rises faster than the projectile load can accelerate down the barrel and POP it achieves a pressure greater than the barrel's elastic failure point and the barrel fails. Depending on where the projectile stopped that failure could be close to the shooter's left hand, you know, the one that used to be on top of his golf grip.
My guess is that this rather morbid situation is approached every time somebody "primes" their main charge but the planets just didn't line up, at least not that time. Maybe next time.
Like I said I'm not a ballistics engineer so what the hell do I know? Well I know this: I ain't gonna use anything down my smoke hole but the largest grind black or equivalent powder that will burn there and save the ffffg for my pan.
Other engineer or physicists, rip me up if you disagree please. Since lots of beginners read these pages it is morally and ethically incumbent on each of us to make certain that the stuff we publish here is accurate. Rule: If you don't know something for sure, say so. Like I tell helpers, "Tell me what you know or tell me what you think but make damned sure you know the difference."
We owe it to each other and newbie readers to get it right or don't publish.
I warned you that I could get preachy if not restrained,
Rob
Damn I hate to be the class know-it-all (I don't) but in real life I'm a physicist and working out problems with interacting systems, in the immortal words of Father Guido Sarduci, "is'a my beat." I've long worried that other shooters don't realize how delicate and close to disaster the black powder firearm is every time we loose a round.
Ballistics is not my field but I have access to enough data that I am able to "run the numbers" tomorrow and publish the equations for any interested. The problem stems from the chance of the so called priming powder mixing with the main charge and therefore grossly altering the burn rate for the entire charge.
Worse is the following: The safety of the black powder system relies on a known burn rate for the powder used and corresponding pressure peak and curve for that powder. The problem scenario goes like this: I fire the lock and the 4gr of #ffffg that I've used for "priming" under the main charge goes off with a pop, burning much faster than the #ffg main charge. That pop produces a corresponding volume of gas which, if large enough, could displace the main charge and the ball/shot load up the barrel a bit. Now, if that bit is large enough to allow the main charge a place to shove some gas pressure as the burn propagates through the stack thereby creating a pressure shock wave that rises faster than the projectile load can accelerate down the barrel and POP it achieves a pressure greater than the barrel's elastic failure point and the barrel fails. Depending on where the projectile stopped that failure could be close to the shooter's left hand, you know, the one that used to be on top of his golf grip.
My guess is that this rather morbid situation is approached every time somebody "primes" their main charge but the planets just didn't line up, at least not that time. Maybe next time.
Like I said I'm not a ballistics engineer so what the hell do I know? Well I know this: I ain't gonna use anything down my smoke hole but the largest grind black or equivalent powder that will burn there and save the ffffg for my pan.
Other engineer or physicists, rip me up if you disagree please. Since lots of beginners read these pages it is morally and ethically incumbent on each of us to make certain that the stuff we publish here is accurate. Rule: If you don't know something for sure, say so. Like I tell helpers, "Tell me what you know or tell me what you think but make damned sure you know the difference."
We owe it to each other and newbie readers to get it right or don't publish.
I warned you that I could get preachy if not restrained,
Rob
"Preachy" can be worn as a badge of honor by some of us but essentially, I'd say you're right. I've know a whole gaggle of muzzleloading guys and gals over the years. The one I considered the most likely to end up in the ER or morgue seemed to think his .58 Navy Arms "Hawken Hunter" could take a steady diet of 125 grains FFFFg and a honking big Minie ball! I considered him just this side of 'raving daft' but he did it for years and as far as I know he's still out there. How...why...I have no clue!
I always figured guns that load from the front perform best at 'moderate' and not 'full power'. No expert, self proclaimed or otherwise, but I've been dong it over 50 years and have all my fingers, some of my hearing and few of my grey cells! I've seen very few muzzleloaders fail from sensible use and none while using 'moderate' methods. I've seen some spectacular failures but each and every one has been the result of equally spectacular stupidity or carelessness. I've always found some basic common sense goes a long way.
I always figured guns that load from the front perform best at 'moderate' and not 'full power'. No expert, self proclaimed or otherwise, but I've been dong it over 50 years and have all my fingers, some of my hearing and few of my grey cells! I've seen very few muzzleloaders fail from sensible use and none while using 'moderate' methods. I've seen some spectacular failures but each and every one has been the result of equally spectacular stupidity or carelessness. I've always found some basic common sense goes a long way.
Rob Dorsey said:
Na, think your streessin' to much!
I think your more likely to hurt your self putting your pants on. Negotiating the stairs or driving to the range!
B. :thumbsup:
I see your point. Whether those pressures actually reach dangerous levels is sumptin' else though.
I am a preacher against the "It ain't blowed up yet" school of thought so say this reluctantly.
Non-expert here: I believe you are incorrect.
Modern cartridge primers act exactly as you advise against.
Solve everything. Stop using Pyrodex. Use only real bp.
I am a preacher against the "It ain't blowed up yet" school of thought so say this reluctantly.
Non-expert here: I believe you are incorrect.
Modern cartridge primers act exactly as you advise against.
Solve everything. Stop using Pyrodex. Use only real bp.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
We've all thought of mixing or stacking powder. We are supposed to know not to. I thought we all did! Besides that "pop" in a stacked charge (also encountered in metallic cartridges using too-hot a, i.e. magnum, primer than should be), mixed grain powders may perform in an unknown and unsafe manner.
I've always wanted to top my paper carts off with five grains of 4f and fill the rest with 2f and won't even do THAT! It's just not done -- the results could be explosive.
We've all thought of mixing or stacking powder. We are supposed to know not to. I thought we all did! Besides that "pop" in a stacked charge (also encountered in metallic cartridges using too-hot a, i.e. magnum, primer than should be), mixed grain powders may perform in an unknown and unsafe manner.
I've always wanted to top my paper carts off with five grains of 4f and fill the rest with 2f and won't even do THAT! It's just not done -- the results could be explosive.
matt denison
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"Damn I hate to be the class know-it-all..."
Don't worry, you're not. If you knew it all you'd know that Pyrodex doesn't work in flintlocks.
:surrender:
Don't worry, you're not. If you knew it all you'd know that Pyrodex doesn't work in flintlocks.
:surrender:
I don't believe what I am reading here....black powder is an EXPLOSIVE and thats why no cavity must exist so a shock wave does not hit a stationary object.
A few grains of a smaller granulation ain't going to change nothing....not with a load sitting on it.
If these things were so finite they would be so unsafe they would of been out lawed years ago! Fortunately common sense still prevails (just about)and despite poor souls having to use Pyrodex in their flintlocks with a pinch of pan powder no-one as far as I am aware has died or been injured!
B.
A few grains of a smaller granulation ain't going to change nothing....not with a load sitting on it.
If these things were so finite they would be so unsafe they would of been out lawed years ago! Fortunately common sense still prevails (just about)and despite poor souls having to use Pyrodex in their flintlocks with a pinch of pan powder no-one as far as I am aware has died or been injured!
B.
Rob Dorsey
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Ok, the jury is in and it is, as it usually is, a split decision. I'm sure that some of you guys are doctors, dentists, engineers or plain out scientists and if so you probably would agree that the disciplines learned there tend to infuse your off duty thinking. So I therefore tend to apply the scientific method to just about everything. Yes it does slow me down sometimes but who cares, I'm always more pleased with the outcome. Or at least I think I am.
So, with all humility and respect for the opinions expressed I must stand by my hypothesis until someone proves it wrong. And if I err, may it be to the side of safety. I'd like to be whole when they drop me in the hole.:wink:
But, while I still have your attention, what do you think of burning 1 1/2 fg in my Trade Musket? I bought a case of Swiss 1 1/2 fg for my cartridge rifle shooting and would like to burn it in the musket. I know it's meant for rifle and cannon but I hoped that the 20ga musket and 12ga shotgun could burn the stuff. What say you?
Best,
Rob
So, with all humility and respect for the opinions expressed I must stand by my hypothesis until someone proves it wrong. And if I err, may it be to the side of safety. I'd like to be whole when they drop me in the hole.:wink:
But, while I still have your attention, what do you think of burning 1 1/2 fg in my Trade Musket? I bought a case of Swiss 1 1/2 fg for my cartridge rifle shooting and would like to burn it in the musket. I know it's meant for rifle and cannon but I hoped that the 20ga musket and 12ga shotgun could burn the stuff. What say you?
Best,
Rob
12 ga. OK. Sure you will be overbore for a 20 almost regardless. I had a problem with Schutzen Reenactor which is basically from 1-1/2 to almost 4. Although they were maybe 75 gr. BLANK loads, live grains were still going out and peppering people. They told me this stuff sings in art'y. Whatever.
Save the big stuff for the big stuff is my suggestion.
Oh, "chemical" by the way...
Save the big stuff for the big stuff is my suggestion.
Oh, "chemical" by the way...
:rotf: :applause:
B :youcrazy:
B :youcrazy:
I bought some Swiss 1 1/2 for the same reason (big bore cartridges). I decided to try it in my newly acquired 13 bore fowling piece and it worked well. It seemed to be a little more lively than 2fg Goex in that gun. Some have said it's hard to ignite but that was not a problem in mine (a percussion) so I don't know about a flintlock but I will definitely try it. Here is a link to my gun with a pretty good target.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/283028/post/1317300/hl//fromsearch/1/
I wish I would have bought more than one pound of the swiss.
I wish I would have bought more than one pound of the swiss.
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Well I intend to carry on doing what I've always done, which is load with either 2f or 3f, and prime with 3f or if I have it priming powder. However to come back to the original point, there are those who will say that this is not a true and accurate recreation of a Trade gun, and yes that may be correct, but what Pedersoli have done is create a stylised version of the original, which, I find a very pleasing gun, to look at, to handle, and to hunt with.
"Simplicity for the simple", is my take any more. I've schlepped enough gear around the country all my 66 years. With my eyes dimming faster than my noggin' I finally decided to go FFFg and adjust charges to fit the bore size.
Can't speak to 1&1/2, have never tried it...and except for Pyrodex, which was first out of the blocks, haven't tried any of the other stuff either...well, not in my own guns, though have shot a few rounds from other folk who'd like the opinion of an old fart! "I may be old but I saw all the good bands!" :shake:
Can't speak to 1&1/2, have never tried it...and except for Pyrodex, which was first out of the blocks, haven't tried any of the other stuff either...well, not in my own guns, though have shot a few rounds from other folk who'd like the opinion of an old fart! "I may be old but I saw all the good bands!" :shake:
Rob Dorsey
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Yeah Brother,
I'm 66 too and I heard The Who in Ok City in '68. What a concert! What a BLAST!
I'm 66 too and I heard The Who in Ok City in '68. What a concert! What a BLAST!
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