Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket

[lnghuntr54]

I had a customer a while back that wanted a 20 ga. trade gun but didn't want to spend much. I searched my flyers and found a good price on a Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket. We looked at it in the Pedersoli catalog and it looked nice...dark stained, 36" barrel, correct ramrod guides, and serpent sideplate, plus I heard the gun was well recieved at it's introduction at the SHOT show. Well, when I got the gun I was shocked to find that the stock showed cutter marks from the duplicator and was stained the color of Grandma's early american furniture (more or less Tan). Also the rod guides were from a Kentucky rifle and the serpent side plate was of their own design (not even close). Needless to say, my customer wasn't interested in it (can't blame him). I thought of sending it back, but decided with some extra work I could make it sellable. I stripped the finish, sanded out the machine marks and stained the stock dark walnut. Browned the lock parts, trigger and guard to match the nicely done barrel. I also bought and installed the correct serpent sideplate and ribbed ramrod guides which I got from TOW. The gun now looks like the picture in the Pedersoli catalog. The experience makes me wonder why Pedersoli would advertise their Musket looking one way and then ship something drastically different. The extra time involved in removing the cutter marks is minimal and a darker finish with correct parts couldn't cost any more. Another strange thing is there was no load information specific to the Trade Musket included with the gun. I assume the max load to be 70grs. Boy, would some lawyer like to get a hold of that instruction manual after some newcomer fills the barrel half full of black powder and blows his fool head off. Oh well, this story has a happy ending as my original customer stopped by to BS and saw the "remodeled" trade gun in the rack and had to have it. We struck a deal and he took it home.

 

[Rebel]

Sounds like you did ok on it then. Good to hear what they actually look like in the flesh so to speak. Pedersoli has a pretty good reputation, but it sounds like they messed up on that one. I would say that a max load would more likely be 90 grs of 3f and 100-110 of 2f. That heavy octagon breech shouldn't have any trouble with those loads, and that is where most of the pressure develops.

 

[aragorn]

I'm very pleased with my 45 cal Pedersoli Flint Kentucky, which I bought a couple of months ago and have now just about shot and sighted in (230 rounds). For a factory gun the quality and finish are very much at the top end of the range, but, to be really fernickity, here are two criticisms of mine in terms of manufacture:

1) the front end of the trigger guard is wonky and doesn't fit the inletting well (one side is flush, the other several mm deep)(On the other hand, the lock is perfectly inlet and the patchbox is pretty good). Somewhere else on this forum I've read about problems with Pedersoli trigger guards.

2) For some reason Pedersoli decided to reduce the number of pins in the barrel to two, one through the brass fore end and one about a third of the way down. The omission of the third pin, shown in the blow-up diagram on their website about a third of the way along the barrel from the breech, means the barrel has some play in the stock at this point. I contacted Pedersoli and they confirmed that they had, indeed, made this change and my rifle was correct. But the give in the barrel annoyed me so I took it off and glued slivers of wood on the stock inlet at this point, on the bottom and each angled side, and that made the barrel fit more solidly.

These are really niggles and by and large it's pretty good, and the lock and barrel seem very good. However, I completely agree about the very generalised instruction handbook which comes with these guns. Pedersoli are obviously safety conscious, with much good advice to this effect in the manual, but bizarrely omit to give the biggest safety tip of all - what the maximum load is. The only info related to load is a small chart with a 'recommended' target load, which doesn't even specify the grain size or powder make. I know they have good info 'in house' as people who e-mail them get good load advice, so can only imagine they've somehow been 'burned' legally after putting too much prescriptive detail on this in their manuals and have opted for a minimalist approach instead. Maybe.

While on ths subject, there seems to be a lot of guff/snobbery about the 'generic' appearance of Pedersoli reproduction longrifles. Obviously they're not reproductions of known rifles, but even many kit rifles which are more 'authentic' are generic to some extent (eg 'York' or 'Lancaster'). My way of looking at it is that, say, a native American of the period would have seen nothing much amiss about a Pedersoli trade musket (which certainly looks pretty accurate to me in general form), nor would a frontiersman or farmer of c 1810-40 seen much amiss in a Pedersoli longrifle in a rack for sale - the much-derided 'Roman nose' and all (I've seem dozens of authentic Americal longrifles of this period very close in stock design to mine). Moreover, Pedersoli have a great Italian sense of style to add to these generic shapes, so I think they do a pretty good job. Let's just hope they fix their manual and review their quality control so they don't send out guns like yours.

Having got that off my chest, I'd also love to have a quality York or Lancaster rifle so will be building one next ...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The problem comes when a company shows one product in its brochures and then delivers another. Bait and switch is an illegal and reprehensible practice, no matter who does it.
Considering the prices that Pedersoli is charging for their products, skimping on pins and tenons that should be there is unacceptable, as is lowering standards of fit and finish. They want to ask premium prices, but they aren't willing to produce premium workmanship. Adding an Italian sense of style to an American longrifle doesn't produce an American longrifle--it produces an Italianate longrifle, in this case short a few parts and lacking in the fit department. An accurate reproduction of a York or Lancaster
School rifle is a recreation of an historical firearm--one that actually existed. If this is generic, I'll take it. And the folks that build them generally don't leave bits and pieces out of them to save a few euros.
The native Americans were very choosey about their trade muskets. They knew quality when they saw it and required certain features on their guns. Bait and switch would have been a most hazzardous error of judgment indeed had a trader pulled it on them. It's likely he would have only tried it once....

 

[Jack Walker]

I own two Pedersoli pieces, a .50cal hatfield and the trade musket and I can't say a bad thing about them. Accurate, well made, good barrells and locks. I reenact, trek and hunt with them and they have never let me down. In my opinion I think your being harsh, just look at all the screw ups J. Brown has made! For an of-the-rack piece I don't think you'll find better. :imo:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The new ones I've seen won't win any prizes for fit and finish. And the prices keep going up. Check the prices on Besses and Charlevilles for example. And when the gun in the ad isn't the gun that you get, something is definitely wrong. And leaving out barrel pins to save money and maximize profits is flat out wrong.
When prices were more reasonable, it may have been possible to overlook some quality issues, but when prices approach lower priced semi-custom guns it isn't. Early Rustic Arms web-site has some good examples of these.
Pedersoli isn't alone in charging more and delivering less. I'm hearing complaints on this score from my friends regarding certain other overseas firearms makers, revolvers in particular. Maybe it's a sign of the dollar's dwindling buying power. Or just corporate greed.

 

[horkeye]

I own (and have owned) and shoot many Pedersoli firearms, all purchased new; Frontier caplock & flinter, Tryon Creedmoor, Mortimer shotgun, 1816 Springfield, Indian Trade Musket, Sharps Infantry Berdan, Sharps Creedmoor #2, Trapdoor Rifle and Mang in Graz handgun. Even with my minimal historical / authentic knowledge, I realise that for the most part, firearms such as the DP Kentucky, Pennsylvania & Frontier are generic copies, although the Australian distributor claims that Pedersoli have at least one original of every type of firearm they manufacture; but on the other hand they produce the Alamo which they claim is a reproduction of the firearm used by those defending the Alamo; perhaps something has been lost in the Italian/English translation, and perhaps the description of this firearm should be "a tribute" to those who defended the Alamo. My main gripe with DP firearms is the extremely poor sparking of all my DP flintlocks; all three of them needed extensive reworking (not by me) so they would spark properly.

As far as there being a "different" Indian Trade musket pictured in the catalog as to what is actually supplied, this could simply be a picture of the pre-production version.

Yes the price of them does go up, almost annually, but what doesn't? (OK apart from wages!). If a prospective buyer wants a real "copy" of an original then they must pay the extra, and wait a considerable period of time before they get what they want, otherwise take what is available off the rack and enjoy your black powder shooting!
:m2c:
Jim.
PS Having said all that, I can't wait to get a "real" reproduction / replica of a long rifle; whilst I love all my DP's, Euroarms, Piettas & Ubertis, there is nothing to compare to a "custom" rifle, even if it is made from a "kit"!
:redthumb:

 

[aragorn]

Russ T Frizzen, you're absolutely right about 'bait and switch', and even a small inconsistency between what's advertised and what you get deserves a kick up the corporate backside. In the case of my missing pin, I was not only ****** off but also anxious that this suggested questionable quality-control: the fact that DP allayed my anxiety may have saved the day, but for a week or so this customer had his confidence wane and surely no company can want that. The lady who replied from DP implied that the gun blow-up diagrams on the web needed updating. But I'm still left wondering why they chose to do away with the pin at this point when it so clearly affects the barrel fit - if it was simple scrimping then it does make you wonder what else.

But on the whole I stick by my guns (!), even taking into account an element of first-time buyer loyalty to what you've decided to get. Ultimately, I guess all of these quibbles add up to the case for a custom/high-quality kit gun, and probably I'm not the only beginner BP flinter heading that way. But even that wouldn't retire my Pedersoli as I've now got it shooting really well (and my lock does spark fine with good flints).

Maybe I was wrong to say 'Italian sense of style' and thus give it a nationalist brush, even though we all know the Italians are good at this! Maybe I should have said that among the many variations of longrifle shape American gunsmiths produced c 1810-40 there was one quite common form that particularly appealed to the designers at DP, who then made it their 'Kentucky.' I say this because DP certainly didn't come up with the general design, it was in existence among authentic rifles of this period. Perhaps a modern rival to Pedersoli based in Germany would favour the straighter-stocked, Jaeger-like forms also found among American longrifles of this period, and that would be their 'Kentucky.' As a mass-producer DP have had to come up with a good-looking gun which is historically plausible to satisfy as many customers as possible (and yes, in Europe too), and you can't fault them on that - I continue to think mine is a fine-looking gun not out of place as an American longrifle c 1810-40, though of course I wouldn't go further than that.

Incidentally, as far as I can tell the DP 'Alamo' is identical to their Kentucky except slight length and fore end changes, so yes, it must have been a marketing gimmick maybe to coincide with the recent film, etc (though, again, a plausible shape for the 1830s ...) So whatever I've said above we must always keep a beady eye on the corporate machine ...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Strider-It's not my intention to knock your gun or anyone else's for that matter. But deceptive business practices really tick me off, especially when premium prices are involved. It gets worse when you look at their kits. They have a long rifle kit for $425.00. It isn't authentic. For a little more money you can get a kit from TOW or Early Rustic Arms or for less money one from Jack Garner.These are historically correct guns using high quality American made parts. And the price Pedersoli charges for replacement parts is highway robbery. Bearing in mind that these are mass produced parts, how about $195 for a Charleville lock or $175 for an 1861 Springfield percussion lock? You can buy high quality American made locks that are used by custom gun builders for a lot less. And if you ring your barrel you are in even worse trouble--some Pedersoli barrels, again mass produced, can run over $400.00. I got rid of my Pedersolis when the cost of repairs started looking like the cost of owning a Ferrari. And service support was nearly non-existent. From what I hear, nothing has changed--except the prices are going up.

 

[aragorn]

Russ T Frizzen, I think it's important to air any personal experience or criticism like this even if you do end up knocking other people's guns - it's what makes this forum so useful. I guess the price thing is critical, and whether or not you are someone who wants to build a kit. I probably would have bought my Pedersoli anyway as a beginner gun, but had I known what I now know a few months ago I would have looked much more seriously at, eg, a Chambers or similar kit as a firsttime flintlock longrifle, for not a great deal more money. I expect the competition for DP in N America will come not only from other factory guns, almost all cheaper, but also from the increasing availability of excellent homegrown locks, stocks and barrels in kits which are reasonably affordable, within most people's ability and more truly 'authentic' (back there again!). Maybe soon someone with the capital will take that one step forward and start selling finished longarms of this quality and authenticity for not much more cost than a DP gun, meaning you could buy, eg, a US made York, Lancaster or whatever off the shelf just as I did with my DP in my local gunshop.

I'm certainly itching to head down the homegrown kit road myself, though meanwhile will enjoy my Pedersoli as long as it works for me ...

 

[horkeye]

IMHO, in a free enterprise situation, manufacturers/importers/retailers should be permitted to charge what they like on the products they are selling; the consumer SHOULD decide if it is appropriate for him/her to pay the asking price for the particular item; no one is forcing the consumer to purchase the firearm/lock/barrel etc. The manufacturer has poured money into developing the product, and they have the right to charge what they like, and I have the right to choose to purchase or not. I believe that there are only a couple of US manufacturers who make traditional-off-the-rack style BP firearms; Lyman & TC and both are Hawken style or similar. Well what do you do if you don't want this style, and you don't want to wait 12+ months for a custom? You purchase a DP or similar. I can't imagine why one would want to purchase a new lock for example; surely the existing one can be repaired? Barrels do wear out and have to be replaced; it doesn't have to be with an original DP barrel (I rebarreled my DP frontier a few years ago with a GM).
If you guys think you have it hard in the US, have a look at Oz prices for DP firearms: Frontier FL walnut $950.00, Pennsylvania FL $930.00, Indian Trade Musket $1500.
Last week I worked out how much it would cost to purchase parts from US to build custom (Lehigh style) FL, the parts total excluding shipping to Oz is $1,200; to have that built by 1 of only 2 Oz custom BP gunsmiths with only a modest amount of engraving & carving will at least double the price! AND I haven't taken into account any import duties etc etc AND I have to wait at least 12 months for it to be built after receiving the parts.
I LOVE all my DP/Uberti/Pietta firearms, but I would love them equally as much if they had a different name on them!
:m2c: although I've probably said more than 2 cents worth!
Jim.
PS The Chrysler 300C will be available in Oz in November/December 2005; I understand it will cost around $65~70K; MSRP in US is $23,995!
If only I lived in US!!!

 

Very interesting post. I have been on a path to buy a Pedersoli 12 sxs for a few months now and have looked at kits and finished products -- all on line. Yesterday, I went to Cebelas (Hamburg, PA) on an ammo run. There in the rack was the finished product so I took a good hard look. Although I am sure this was a floor model, due to the degree of handling induced rust on the tubes, I was very unhappy with the overall sloppy apperance of the gun. The fit and finish made it look like a first time basemant project of a person whose only prior experience in woodworking was on a Cub Scout box car racer. I did not even get to the point of examining the tube soldering. No point.

 

[fatboy]

I am not taking up for anyone but I want to say when looking at bp revolvers last yr I was given a price at that time that thats good for now and said with ever increasing value of Euro dollars prices were going up on new shippments of guns. This isnt a excuse for price gouging quality of the firearm is on the maker no matter who it is .

 

[smokeblower]

I have stated this once and will restate. It is a shame that Americans have to send money to Italy to buy copies of OUR traditional guns.

second opinion: Pedersoli makes some good out-of-the- box guns. I am glad I purchased mine before the Euro started beating up our dollar, but that is another soapbox topic. I do not have a politically correct bone in my body so I am happy with my hair splitting Blue Ridge rifle. The only problem was the crappy dowl rod ramrod. That was replaced with a hand shaved hickory split rod.

back to political correctness; This is why I left the N_SSA several years ago. I felt like a old lady arguing over stiching patterns at the church social quilting bee. The arguments took all the fun out of reenacting. I sold my costume for half price, parted company and have never regretted that decision. Fact in point. The N_SSA backs the 1863 Remington Zouave, a gun NEVER used in the Civil War, then the inflated heads want to tell me what kind of pants and shirts a Confererate soldier can wear. Too many inflated big heads on a power trip. Then the "big bosses" return to their heated and air conditioned campers while we sleep in canvis half shelters on hay, which was our choice.

My point is, this hobby is about having fun and taking game. I can do that with a center fire or a in-line gun. But like the 'big bosses" that takes all the fun out of the hobby.

thanks for allowing me time on my soapbox. All this is:imo:


Smokeblower

 

[varsity07840]

I have a DP Mortimer 12 ga. flint that I'm very happy with. The workmanship is very good for a production gun and the lock sparks very well. My main gripe is too small a powder chamber
in the patent breech. The cylinder bore patterned ok but I eventually had it jug choked. It's a winner.

 

[Keith]

Just a point of clarification. Lyman imports guns from Investarms of Italy. It does not make guns.

 

[horkeye]

Just a point of clarification. Lyman imports guns from Investarms of Italy. It does not make guns.

I suspected they may have had Italian origins, but was not 100% sure.
Anyway, who cares! Can't wait to get to the range in Feb & burn some more BP. Spent ALL of today casting 45-500-BPS (OK its not ML but at least it's still BP!), hopefully cast enough for the rest of the year!
Jim. :redthumb:

 

[RussB]

Lnghuntr54... That was a good story. I'm glad you were able to "fix' and undo what DP was trying to pass off.

However, the other posts sure puts one to thinking about todays mind set, on buying off shore products when the economy is based on the Euro. :nono:

When the Euro was being discussed several years ago, a professor from England (I can't remember his name, perhaps someone from England can help out here) told the world this would happen. He said it was an artifical inflation of sorts to prevent the European nations involved from a total collapse, and would require at least ten years to settle back into a "normal" economic trade / exchange system.

He also stated it may never return to the previously known standards of some currencies...ie, British Pound, and American Dollar, as long as there was demand for the country's exports.

If I remember correctly, just a very few years back, a GPR "kit" was about $159.00 plus shipping. Last fall, that very same kit cost $300.00.....it was (+/-) $40.00 More than the company's latest catalog. which was released in Apr./May of 2004. (Mid-South is the catalog I'm refering to.)

There is no "good" solution to this, IMHO.

Sorry for rambling.........

Russ

 

[aragorn]

Lehigh County, I replied to you, but my post was lost when the server changed - anyway, the gist of it was to welcome another fan of Pedersoli, and to sympathise with the price situation in Oz which has some comparison with Canada (especially in provinces like Ontario where you get a hefty provincial sales tax on top of federal). I paid, I think, $615 Canadian for my DP Flint Kentucky (one of their cheaper models), but the total outlay with tax plus beginner's accessories and ammo came to about $1100. But I'm not complaining about this, when you look at gun and shooting costs as a whole these days.
A big question in my mind raised by this thread is why there is no US manufacturer of finished, high quality arms of the range produced by DP (both longrifles and historically accurate military smoothbores, plus their excellent pistols). Given American business entrepreneurship, one conclusion would be that DP (and the other Italian makers) have cornered the market for these type of BP off-the-shelf guns and are very difficult to compete with, and by and large customers other than purists (who will always tend to go for the custom/kit anyway) are happy with their products. That seems to be the bottom line.

 

[varsity07840]

Sort of a post script to my earlier one regarding my Mortimer.
I just latched on to a DP Gemmer Sharps. Haven't had a chance to shoot it yey, but if it shoots as good as it looks, WOW!!