Pedersoli SXS Pattern Problem Solved - Thanks!!!

[jdixon]

I put up a post last weekend asking for assistance with inconsistent patterns out of my Pedersoli 10ga. SXS. I got several suggestions to try a wad configuration consisting only of thin over shot (OS) cards. This was primarily from results pictured and or mentioned in this posts Post#392376 and Post#395888 . I wanted to put up the results I got.

I finally got a chance to work on patterning again yesterday with this gun, trying out this new (for me) loading technique. Previously I had been working with a 3 dram powder load and 1.5 to 1.75 ounces of shot, hard over powder card, Styrofoam wad and two thin over shot cards. At times, this configuration would yield some good to excellent patterns. There were times however that the exact same load would be blown to pieces ”“ not good.

I have done a fair amount of patterning this spring, testing out various loads. I have done this in years past but, as I continue to learn more about these shotguns, I always want to try something new. To pattern my standard “target” for is a 21” X 17” sheet of paper with a 7 ½” X 6” orange square in the middle. The number of pellets in the orange is what I count and it is that number use for comparison. I have used this as a standard set up for several years now. Keeping this consistent allows me to compare notes from year to year.

First shot I tried was 85 grains of FFg, 4 OS cards perforated as mentioned in the post listed above, a 120 grain volume of #6 shot (or about 1.75 oz.), and two thin OS cards. This and all of the shots described here were through an extra full choke tube. The results of this load were disappointing ”“ only 8 pellets in the orange standard.

At this point I go back to the “equal volume” shot to powder load. The barrel was swabbed of fouling and reloaded with 100 grains FFg, and 100 grain volume of #6 (which works out to 1.4 ounces). Four perforated OS cards were loaded atop the powder, and two OS cards without perforation were placed on top of the shot. Results of this load were dramatically better.

Fifty-one #6 pellets struck the orange standard on this shot. Of the 315 pellets in the load, 16% are striking the target area at 25 yrds., pretty good. I fired several more with both right and left barrels at 25 yrds, all with similar results. Satisfied that I now have a load that is consistently shooting turkey-killing shots @ 25 yrds, I put the pattern board out to 40 yrds.

Using the same load I placed 22 pellets or 7% of the total shot into the orange standard. Though the pattern is really beginning to spread out at this point, I feel the pattern is sufficient to take a turkey at this range.

With this gun, I have noticed that there are some differences with the sight picture depending on which barrel you were using. On this forum, others have made the same observation with their Pedersoli SXS’s. The right barrel patterns on target best when using the center bead as POA placed right on the target. The left barrel will shoot a good foot left if you use this center bead as your POA like the pattern shot below.

I had noted this difference in the sight pictureo of the two different barrels a few years ago. To compensate I installed secondary beads on both barrels to assist with sighting. I now use the bead of the left barrel as the sight for that barrel while the center bead is the sight for the right.

The “OS card only” load column using an equal volume of shot and powder has increased my maximum effective range of this gun 10 yrds, over my previous loads and has all but eliminated the problem I was having with inconsistency between shots. When turkey season starts here, I will essentially be going into the field with a new gun. Thanks Iron Jim and Paul V. for the suggestion.

 

[Rebel]

Looks like you are on the right track. Looking pretty good. I have been using just the overshot cards lately too. Seems to work pretty good. Good luck.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Very good.'m glad you tried it. Cushion and overpowder wads must serve some useful purpose, but they certtainly aren't useful to patterning a shotgun. Overshot cards are really all you need.
Don't keep it a secret. Next time you see someone messing around with overpowder and cushion wads, show them how much more effectively they could shoot with just overshot cards. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

After the season, try testing a load using 2 3/4 drams, and 1 1/8 oz of shot. ( 75 grains of powder, and 90 grains of shot, using the same shot volume measure.) I still think you would be better off at those long range birds useing #5 shot, and for turkey, it would be worth the added cost to buy plated shot from Ballistics Products. You can get nickel plated shot that will be less likely deformed and deliver its energy into the bird through the feathers because it is harder to flatten and distort with the plating, compared to a lead pellet with antimony.

Using the Lyman Shotshell Handbook dataon pattern velocity, and pellet energy, the energy of a #6 pellet fired at the low velocity of 1133 fps. at the muzzle is is only 2.08 Ft. lbs., while a #5 pellet fired at the same muzzle velocity has a pellet energy at 40 yds of 2.92 Ft. lbs., almost 50% more energy than you get with that #6 pellet load. YOu can increase that powder charge to 3 drams, ( 82.5 grains) and increase the load to 1.5 oz. to increase the pellet count, while keeping pretty much the same velocity, and have the same number of pellets using #5 shot at 1.5 oz. as you would have using #6 shot at 1 1/8 oz. By reducing your load in velocity, there is less distorting of the pellets when the gases pushes forward, also helped by using the nickel plated shot, and you should get denser patterns. Since it is pellet energy that kills at that long range, denser patterns should be the goal. Use the larger pellet to get more shock on the bird.

Glad to see that your results on paper seem to confirm what Iron Jim has been saying. He really does have a great idea.

 

[mommicked]

Do you mean using one OS wad for the OP wad, then one OS wad in the traditional place(ahead of/on top of the shot), or just two OS wads on top of it all?

 

[paulvallandigham]

NO, he is using 4 OS cards that have had holes ( perforated) pushed through them off center, so that they are aligned at 12, 3, 6, and 9 O'clock. That way, the holes do not line up and allow any gas to escape into the shot. He used 2 perforated OS card on top of the shot, letting the air out( if you have loaded a shotgun with unperforated cards, you can bounce your ramrod out of the barrel with the air pressure created that the seal of the card to the barrel!) through the holes, while aligning them so that they hold the shot in place, even through the recoil of the adjoining barrel being fired.

 

[jdixon]

I still think you would be better off at those long range birds useing #5 shot, and for turkey, it would be worth the added cost to buy plated shot from Ballistics Products. You can get nickel plated shot that will be less likely deformed and deliver its energy into the bird through the feathers because it is harder to flatten and distort with the plating, compared to a lead pellet with antimony.

The plated shot is a good idea but, I have been wary of using it until I researched it more. Good time to ask. Is there any danger with that harder plated shot messing up the choke tube as the shot column is forcing its way past that point? I have heard of choke tubes being blown out the end of the gun with steel shot loads if the gun was not rated for it. Come to think of it, I believe this gun is rated for steel shot, but I would have to confirm that.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu can call ballistic's Products and ask their people, but I don't believe there is any danger to using plated shot. Plated shot was used for waterfowl before lead shot was outlawed. Its harder, but not that hard. We are talking about a relatively light layer of playing, probably less than .001" of an inch.

The whole idea is not deforming shot in the barrel, is t lower the load used, go to a slower burning powder( FFg or Fg vs. FFFg powder, for instance, ) so that you don't have this violent push against the shot when its at rest, then toughen up the shot's surface with plating, so it resists deformation even more. The nickel then protects the shot that rubs against the walls of the barrel going out the gun, leaving more round pellets to remain in the core pattern, and give you better long range patterns.

The lesser velocity may have the pattern strike as much as 6 inches Lower than a higher velocity, at 40 yards, but your bead front sight covers more area than that! I have already comment on pellet energy. Because I don't know the velocity of the 90 and 100 grain powder charges you are using with that 1 5/8" oz. of shot, I can't guess what velocity you are getting. No one makes a good BP shotgun loading manual that give velocities for various powder and shot combinations. I have searched for one, trust me. If you use the Lyman Shotshell Manual as a comparative reference, you can get a feel for what kind of resistance air has to those round pellets as they leave the muzzle, how much energy and speed is lost in that first 20 yards, and how much is then lost in the 20-40 yard distance. The results published made me wonder why anyone bothers trying to load fast loads in a shotgun, unless it is throated, and has a long-tapered, full choke boreor back bored the entire length. Both solutions are found in modern breech loading shotgun barrels.

 

[Runner]

Try a 3/4 load to pick up the heavy pattern you are looking for. My 12 shoots tighter at 30 yards with the more open chokes than it does the full. The extra full tubes are a big mistake with a muzzleloader in my opinion. I shoot better than full choke with my loads at 30 yards until I put the full choke tube in. Then I shoot about what a lot of you describe as your patterns.
I rolled my last bird at a hair over 40 yards with my muzzleloading shotgun. 90 grains of powder under 120 of shot is about as hot as I can go and still keep my patterns, but my gun is very light. The flinch factor becomes big, even at the 90 grain load. I use one thick over powder wad. The wad I use is 6mm thick. You might try experimenting with changing the chokes and a 3/4 load using your current system. I think you will be pleased.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Runner: Trying to understand what you are talking about when you say a " 3/4 load ". Are you meaning 3 parts powder to 4 parts shot????? As in 3:4 ? Or are you using 3/4 of some other load that's 100%, as in 75% of a full load?

I tend to agree with your findings about chokes in BP guns. Unless you are using small shot for clay targets, the more open chokes seem to shoot the larger shot better at the lower velocities of BP loads, and produce good patterns.

For instance, I read, maybe 15 years ago, in the American Rifleman magazine, a story reprinted from its predecessor magazine about shotgun loads used by the Commercial Duck hunters on the Illinois River back in the 1880s. The favorite "50 yard " duck load was 2 3/4 drams of powder, and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot. The guns were mostly cylinder bore, and most were still using MLs. But, even the breechloaders were mostly unchoked guns.

I decided to try that load in my modern guns, and with the plastic shotcups, it does shoot good patterns with my full choke barrel. However, in another gun without the plastic shot cups, the patterns opened and were more ragged.

So, I agree that your choice of loads, components, and choke are all considerations you have to focus on when developing loads in any gun.

 

[Runner]

3:4 ratio Paul. I use 90-120 for turkeys. I use 60-80 or 50-70 as light loads. Once I found what my gun liked on the top end, that same ratio of powder to shot works well at any level so far 2f is also easier to pattern in it. If you want really tight, take a steel shot wad and cut three curly cues on the base to act like drag vanes. Do not slit the cup down the side at all. The cup will not separate for about 20 yards.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I can't get a picture of what you are describing as " Curly cues on the bottom of the wad ". Any chance you can post a picture? The plastic cups I have from Ballistics Products have only a very thin " bottom " to them, with slits in the sides, but they are attached at the top. I am assuming that BP expects customers to trim the cups to length, and in the process cut those slits loose.

 

[Runner]

Sorry Paul! I read about this somewhere. It works pretty good.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Runner: Thnak you for that picture. Now I do understand what you are describing. A very good idea, BTW. Now if those " wings " will just fold into the barrel of my fowler, and not break off o the way down the tube......... I can see how they would act as a air brake, and aid in separating the wad from the shot.

 

[Runner]

I tried them and the CVA shot cups in the Trapper trying to get a good waterfowl legal and effective pattern with steel. Never did achieve the goal, but I learned some stuff along the way. Set a gallon milk jug full of water at about 25 steps. Load a CVA shotcup, and don't cut the sides at all. It makes a very nice 25 yard prefragmented slug! Now completely destroy the water jug!
If you don't cut the "wings" on the bottom of the steel cups, they are almost as bad.

 

[PeterV]

Paul, This sounds like the similar results you achieved with the three wraps of post-it note paper you used for a shot cup with a 20 ga. felt wad on the bottom to cushion the shot column. If I remember right, your shot tore a welded steel leg off a target stand at either 25 yds or 50 yds, leaving a very round 12 ga. hole through your patterning board on its way -- as Runner says, it was a pre-fragmented slug -- I like his terminology.

Peter Vallandigham

 

[Runner]

I am lucky in that I have shooting access at my home. The Trapper has been patterned with 3f 777, 3f Goex, 3f Graf's, Pyrodex P, and Pyrodex RS. I am also lucky in that when I went looking for wads, a friend gave me an old box of Nitro cards that are real close to 6mm thick. One over the powder, and a layer separated off another one over the shot is all the wadding I need for this one to pattern.
Start reducing your powder until the pattern fills in. Check penetration at hunting ranges. There is a balance point where pattern density and penetration to do the job are as optimum as they are going to get in that gun without changing components. More powder gives you faster speeds, but it blows the pattern so your range does not increase. The same applies the other way. If you drop the powder too low, the pattern is great but it is not fast enough to do the job at longer ranges. Once you find that loading point for your gun, then you can really evaluate changes caused by components.
If your gun shoots it well, 2f doesn't kick nearly as bad as 3f does in the heavier loadings, but the pentration at hunting ranges is pretty much the same as the 3f loads.