Penny Knife for Patches?

[jackley]

Here are 2 of the originals I have left they are both friction folders.

Jerry

 

[44-henry]

I would be very interested in seeing any actual documentation that shows a knife (or any cutting instrument) of this period that was made entirely of plain iron. The idea is frankly a bit absurd and I agree, an attempt at primitizing the period.

 

[Stophel]

Personally, for cutting patches, I would not want to mess with a folding knife anyway. I want the quickest, easiest, most convenient knife available to cut the patch with, and that would be my main sheath knife on my belt. I can get it out, use it, and put it back one handed, without having to dig in my pocket and use both hands to try to open it up and close it back.

 

[Bo T]

I would be very interested in seeing any actual documentation that shows a knife (or any cutting instrument) of this period that was made entirely of plain iron. The idea is frankly a bit absurd and I agree, an attempt at primitizing the period.

I finally went and checked out wrought iron and found that it can have up to .25% carbon. The main determination was the amount of other impurities, primarily silicas. So a determination of blades regarding if they were a low quality steel (ie, 1025) or wrought iron would have to look at the purity of the metal. The one advantage to wrought iron is that it is much more corrosion resistant than the simple steels. Also, wrought iron can work harden-providing a more durable edge. It could be that some artifacts have been

mislabeled as steel? ​

 

[Ketchakah]

Hatito Friends,

I usually just tear a strip of material about a foot long and inch and half wide and hang it in my belt. When i need a patch I tear off a square and stick it on my mouth. No knife needed. By the time im done charging, its quite wet and slides down quite easy.

Like i said, I only use spit lube. Works for me. And accuracy, while maybe not competition level, is adequate.

 

[Straekat]

I would be very interested in seeing any actual documentation that shows a knife (or any cutting instrument) of this period that was made entirely of plain iron. The idea is frankly a bit absurd and I agree, an attempt at primitizing the period.

Take a few minutes and google this string, with all of the words:

French "fur trade" "iron knives" archaeology

You'll get a long list of articles that contain references to IRON, not steel knives traded by the French to Indians from the 1600s through the 1740's. The knives included both fixed and folding blade knives. There are also references to iron axes (no mention of steel bit/edges).

This article is one you can check if you don't want to google the text string and aren't interested in reading archaeological reporting of iron knives being recovered from historic French/Indian sites of the fur trade era.

http://www.museum.state.il.us/muslink/nat_amer/post/htmls/te_trade.html

Once you have READ some of those reports, let me know if you are still skeptical of what professional archaeologists have recovered and reported on. Please note, it's not one report, but several from wide spread occurrences all across the Trans-Mississippi, Great Lakes and eastern Canada.

Facts, not opinions.

 

[tenngun]

That’s interesting, but I am put in mind of ‘Iron Age, when most of the edge holding tools were steel. An iron sword ain’t much good.

 

[Straekat]

Tenn,

Before the arrival of Europeans in the Americas, stone axes were used to cut down trees, hollow out logs for canoes, and so on. Copper was known and shaped, but tended to be used for ornamental purposes and not heavy chopping work. Once you consider that, an iron axe and iron knife is a quantum technological leap over using most types of stone.

Trying to interpret the past requires being able to stop thinking like a modern day American/European/whatever, and rethink what we -think- we know. It's not easy and more than a few people can't do that.

 

[tenngun]

We’re not those iron axes fitted with a steel edge welded in to the end?

 

[Black Hand]

Trying to interpret the past requires being able to stop thinking like a modern day American/European/whatever, and rethink what we -think- we know. It's not easy and more than a few people can't do that.

We see this for our hobby too often - a modern mindset applied retroactively. This results in fantasy items in vendor tents and the "they must of had it if I can think about it" approach. And you are very correct - few can think about it from a period perspective...

 

[tenngun]

I wasn’t bringing a modren mind set, just noted historically meteoritic Iron, in fact an iron nickel alloy, was preferred for knifes and swords, a meteor lump was one of the prizes at Hector’s funeral games in the Iliad. That iron axes were fitted with steelbit in the end. Medieval swords in Europe ofthe made with iron core and steel edges. There may have been plenty of all iron tomahawks traded, but all I have seen had steel edges. I’m not a chemist or a blacksmith but I’m thinking iron in a wood or coal fire picks up a mite of carbon in the process? A little maybe?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yes. Swordsmiths knew that folding and shaping the blade made it stronger. Whether they knew it was because they were working in carbon I'm not so sure. They also understood tempering, quenching and hardening.

The Scandinavians even produced crucible steel as far back as the 9th Century. Before that they were pattern welding different iron alloys to add strength and flexibility. They knew the techniques whether they understood the chemistry/metallurgy as to why it behaved as it did is harder to say.

"For no one - no one in this world you can trust. Not man, not woman, not beasts. Steel. This you can trust."

 

[Black Hand]

I’m not a chemist or a blacksmith but I’m thinking iron in a wood or coal fire picks up a mite of carbon in the process? A little maybe?

Under certain conditions - yes. Though it doesn't appear to happen under the conditions you describe.

 

[tenngun]

Well iron is a horn dog, and carbon, well she will go with any atom that winks at her, give the two a little steamy area and it’s all x-rated.
Roman swords have been found made in factories all over the empire that were good steel, Spanish was the best. No self respecting Viking ever went off to cut up a Saxon with out a steel edge on his axe. Every original tomahawk I’ve seen had a steel bit inserted. I don’t know if a all soft iron axe would cut quicker then a fine Neolithic ax.... though I’ve only seen them used on you tube.

 

[Bo T]

We’re not those iron axes fitted with a steel edge welded in to the end?

The artifacts that I have read about from the Viking period did have a steel bit welded to the iron. However, iron age swords (not Viking) and knives were often work hardened iron which would have been marginally better than the work hardened bronze of an earlier period. The reason that iron supplanted bronze is due to its availability. However, the dark ages reversed many technical gains and
the wootz steel process seems to have been lost. In England many post midevil knives are categorized as iron. Leading me to believe the access to steel by peasants was limited.

 

[Bo T]

My concern is that an artifact might be discovered and an assumption made that a steel bit must have been attached at some point even though none was found. From what I understand the process of puddling the cast iron to make wrought iron then the process of adding carbon to make blister steel and then the single shear process to remove impurities did not result in a very homogenous alloy. A forger making blades for a 'penny' knife would start with the cheapest (steel?) available. Indeed, the difference between a low carbon steel and high carbon wrought iron seems to be somewhat blurry.

 

[Black Hand]

My concern is that an artifact might be discovered and an assumption made that a steel bit must have been attached at some point even though none was found. From what I understand the process of puddling the cast iron to make wrought iron then the process of adding carbon to make blister steel and then the single shear process to remove impurities did not result in a very homogenous alloy. A forger making blades for a 'penny' knife would start with the cheapest (steel?) available. Indeed, the difference between a low carbon steel and high carbon wrought iron seems to be somewhat blurry.

And Penny knives were not renowned for having the highest quality blades (read somewhere, but don't remember where). They were cheap knives, and like today, cheap knives come with cheap blades that just don't keep an edge well...

 

[Straekat]

My concern is that an artifact might be discovered and an assumption made that a steel bit must have been attached at some point even though none was found. From what I understand the process of puddling the cast iron to make wrought iron then the process of adding carbon to make blister steel and then the single shear process to remove impurities did not result in a very homogenous alloy. A forger making blades for a 'penny' knife would start with the cheapest (steel?) available. Indeed, the difference between a low carbon steel and high carbon wrought iron seems to be somewhat blurry.

Agreed.

There are differences between actual wrought iron, particularly once it has been hand-forged, and low grade steel.

https://mailleisriveting.weebly.com...os-the-difference-between-iron-and-steel.html

Modern blacksmiths typically used low-grade steel, not real wrought iron. The rifle barrels, knives and other metal work re-enactors and others in the overall hobby we buy and enjoy, are seldom/almost-never spot on reproductions of how metal items were made before the first half of the 19th century. Modern people like sharp knives that stay sharp and require little or no maintenance. "Back in the day" people using those original items learned to cope with the limitations of the tools they used, to get optimal results from them, and maintain them.

 

[Straekat]

Under certain conditions - yes. Though it doesn't appear to happen under the conditions you describe.

BH....ABSOLUTELY!

I collect and use cast iron cooking utensils, and they get used indoors in the kitchen, and outdoors over a campfire. I've yet to see a cast iron skillet made for use on a coal stove, and used on campfires turn into a steel one.....

 

[Black Hand]

BH....ABSOLUTELY!

I collect and use cast iron cooking utensils, and they get used indoors in the kitchen, and outdoors over a campfire. I've yet to see a cast iron skillet made for use on a coal stove, and used on campfires turn into a steel one.....

It also appears that some surface carbon is lost from steel during the forging process.