Penny Knife for Patches?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Looking at those old dominion knives, that guy is nuts for some of his prices. I had a blacksmith forge me a custom D-guard Bowie from quality spring steel, built to my specs, for $150. This guys is asking TRIPLE that, and more, for his larger blades and while they look nice, they’re priced higher than a Randall and sure don’t look as well fitted or finished as one.

 

[Black Hand]

Looking at those old dominion knives, that guy is nuts for some of his prices. I had a blacksmith forge me a custom D-guard Bowie from quality spring steel, built to my specs, for $150. This guys is asking TRIPLE that, and more, for his larger blades and while they look nice, they’re priced higher than a Randall and sure don’t look as well fitted or finished as one.

A quality knife is expensive and a quality reproduction folder is even more so. They are fiddly creatures to create/assemble and the amount of work that goes into them isn't really communicated well by their simple appearance. You can find mass-produced folders that will do the job for a lesser price but they are of a limited quality. That said, you can sharpen them (at least most) and they will cut a patch. A couple are shown at https://www.townsends.us/collections/knives-sheaths-swords. I have one of the Gentleman's pocket knives - not a terrible knife in appearance, but the blade leaves something to be desired as it is a little on the soft side. I also have one of the Soldier's knives - the blade is of better quality, but the overall knife is clunky for my tastes.

 

[Stophel]

Most people have no concept of hand work and craftsmanship, and no comprehension of how much work and skill and talent is involved.

 

[Bo T]

Looking at those old dominion knives, that guy is nuts for some of his prices. I had a blacksmith forge me a custom D-guard Bowie from quality spring steel, built to my specs, for $150. This guys is asking TRIPLE that, and more, for his larger blades and while they look nice, they’re priced higher than a Randall and sure don’t look as well fitted or finished as one.

The small English trade knife would probably fit the bill for a belt knife used for cutting patches, along with meat off the spit. And it is a lot less expensive than the fancier knives. Of course you could probably find a mass produced knife that is similar for about a third the price.

 

[Black Hand]

The small English trade knife would probably fit the bill for a belt knife used for cutting patches, along with meat off the spit. And it is a lot less expensive than the fancier knives. Of course you could probably find a mass produced knife that is similar for about a third the price.

I started with a Old Hickory slicer for which I removed the riveted handle, cut down the tang and installed a pinned wood handle (I did grind down the up-swept tip a little to improve the profile to my eye, as I prefer a drop-tip shape). For less that $20 and a few hours of work, I had a functional knife that didn't look out of place. I could have thinned the blade to remove the embossed marks (as a friend of mine did) and get the blade closer to a period thickness, but I didn't bother. The steel holds an edge well, can be sharpened easily and is tough. A rawhide sheath covered with Brain-tan kept it ready at my waist.

 

[Grenadier1758]

6 pages later, with talks of everything from Bronze Age weponry to obsidian knives, but nobody can still tell me a straight answer if these types of penny knife are historically correct for my purposes...

For the most part, your answer was given on page 1 by Stumpkiller with the photo of knives excavated at Fort Michilimacinac. The hump on the back was not as exaggerated as your example.

Folding knives are historically correct for the time frame. They won't have the exaggerated hump on the back for the both eastern use. In truth, no one can give a straight answer for use as a patch knife since so many alternative options existed.

If your knife, Smokey, can hold a patch cutting edge and you can open it with one hand, then it is correct for your purpose and was available historically.

 

[Straekat]

Shaving straight razors have been around for a very long time, and a flea-market special with plastic handles, and damaged blade could be used as a patch knife. Replace the grips with wood and the razor itself could even be shortened.

During the 18th century when clean shaven faces were the norm, more than a few people thought of using one for that purpose especially if they liked traveling light.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Shaving straight razors have been around for a very long time, and a flea-market special with plastic handles, and damaged blade could be used as a patch knife. Replace the grips with wood and the razor itself could even be shortened.

During the 18th century when clean shaven faces were the norm, more than a few people thought of using one for that purpose especially if they liked traveling light.

So more speculation? Bother...

 

[Straekat]

So more speculation? Bother...

Life is full of speculation. We get up in the morning and then "speculate" we'll live to the end of the day. Lighten up. ;-)

In Neumann and Kravic’s Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution, on page 240 fig. 1, noted in the text of this reference, these wide bladed folding razors frequently did double duty both as a razor and as a patch knife.

That's according to Neumann, so my "speculation" is at least attributable to a source, instead of something I pulled out the air.

The NPS Virtual Museum is linked here. The NPS attributes the razor as being from Neumann's collection, and some razors were also used as patch knives.

https://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/vafoimg/vafo1472.html

 

[Straekat]

[QUOTE="
and some razors were also used as patch knives.
View attachment 4277[/QUOTE]

Change that period at the end to "....knives?"

 

[Stophel]

That style of razor is known to be Chinese. While it could possibly be 18th century (or 19th, or 20th...), it's not likely to have been used in colonial America. It's a reenactorism from the past that still lives on, as these types of razors are still sold as "authentic 18th century razors".

This is a problem you run into when "collectors" dictate what is historically accurate.

 

[Black Hand]

That style of razor is known to be Chinese. While it could possibly be 18th century (or 19th, or 20th...), it's not likely to have been used in colonial America. It's a reenactorism from the past that still lives on, as these types of razors are still sold as "authentic 18th century razors".

This is a problem you run into when "collectors" dictate what is historically accurate.

I had read somewhere that such a device (as shown above) was used to score Poppy heads so the latex (opium) could be collected. I can't confirm this is accurate nor do I remember where I saw the information.

 

[Straekat]

That style of razor is known to be Chinese. While it could possibly be 18th century (or 19th, or 20th...), it's not likely to have been used in colonial America. It's a reenactorism from the past that still lives on, as these types of razors are still sold as "authentic 18th century razors".

This is a problem you run into when "collectors" dictate what is historically accurate.

The Chinese style razor may not have been used, however, trade with the West and China during the period is well-documented and Chinese porcelain in particular has been recovered from numerous 18th century archaeological sites in North America. In addition to porcelain, other Chinese goods including silk, tea, furniture and other items were also highly sought after by Europeans and colonists in North America.

I'm not trying to make a case for Chinese style razors being used. The reason I referred to Neumann was his statement that razors were (sometimes?) used for patch knives. He must have encountered that in print somewhere although we don't know where. I provided a source for who stated razors were used as patch knives. He may be wrong about the example, and so would the NPS for putting it in the Valley Forge Museum. That doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong about it's use.

On the matter of patch knives in general, there is a school of thought that patch knives may not have been used at all during the 18th century to cut patching material at the muzzle. That subject has already been discussed on this forum elsewhere.

 

[tenngun]

At the start of the revolution America had a white population of about two million, officially. I would SPECULATE that the real population was a little higher, but of corse I can’t prove it.
Most everyone had a knife of some sort. Out of two million people we would have had approximately six hundred sixty thousand adult males who owned at least one knife each. Some owned more the one, some owned razors, pen knifes, penny knifes, a few may even have had some foreign knifes, brought in by a seaman from some exotic placed and pawned in port.
And we’re going to make some sort of statement about the use of no less then six hundred thousand knifes?
So.... how many angles dance on your pins

 

[Black Hand]

And we’re going to make some sort of statement about the use of no less then six hundred thousand knifes? So.... how many angles dance on your pins

As with anything else historical, we have evidence of what was here. Knives were used, but they didn't just magically appear from nowhere - they were IMPORTED (for the most part) and home-made (lesser amount). As such, we have a pretty good idea of WHAT was available through trade lists & existing examples. And despite your protestations, distinctions such as these ARE important.

If you are going to make the claim that a particular type of knife/blade/razor/etc. was available, you will need to provide supporting evidence for such a claim. Until such evidence is provided, the reasonable position is that it/they DID NOT exist...

Many things are POSSIBLE, but not all things are PROBABLE.

 

[Newtire]

Life is full of speculation. We get up in the morning and then "speculate" we'll live to the end of the day. Lighten up. ;-)A-freakin-men! I'll bet people back "in the day" weren't real concerned about being so P.C. as people are today. They couldn't just fire up their computer and order up a patch knife from TOW. I have several examples of metal arrowheads from my great grandpa's collection that were made before the first transcontinental railroad was built. It wouldn't take much thinking for one of the early pioneers to use a blade or other hunk of sharp metal to do anything he wanted to with it. Just making a point. If you want to believe otherwise, that's up to you to have your opinion/speculation also I suppose . Peace!!


In Neumann and Kravic’s Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution, on page 240 fig. 1, noted in the text of this reference, these wide bladed folding razors frequently did double duty both as a razor and as a patch knife.

That's according to Neumann, so my "speculation" is at least attributable to a source, instead of something I pulled out the air.

The NPS Virtual Museum is linked here. The NPS attributes the razor as being from Neumann's collection, and some razors were also used as patch knives.

https://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/vafoimg/vafo1472.html

View attachment 4277

 

[Black Hand]

So.... how many angles dance on your pins

In the humoristic magazine Annals of Improbable Research, Anders Sandberg has presented a calculation based on theories of information physics and quantum gravity, establishing an upper bound of 8.6766×10 to the 49th power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin?

 

[tenngun]

As with anything else historical, we have evidence of what was here. Knives were used, but they didn't just magically appear from nowhere - they were IMPORTED (for the most part) and home-made (lesser amount). As such, we have a pretty good idea of WHAT was available through trade lists & existing examples. And despite your protestations, distinctions such as these ARE important.

If you are going to make the claim that a particular type of knife/blade/razor/etc. was available, you will need to provide supporting evidence for such a claim. Until such evidence is provided, the reasonable position is that it/they DID NOT exist...

Many things are POSSIBLE, but not all things are PROBABLE.

I’m missing something here. Where did I claim there were knifes that you or the historic record doesn’t say existed in this country. Out side of a passing reference to exotic blades that may have come in sailors belts this post gave no statement as to what sort of knifes were available.
Only the number of knifes that were in use. Just one knife per person would have been two million blades. It strikes me as absurd that one would attemp to say a knife owner did not use a knife in a way.
I’m sure in your life you have seen knifes misused,you may have misused a knife your self,I know I have. Now I use pre cut patches inshooting. A practice that was known in the old days. As was cutting at the muzzle. I find it a pia, some like it. The idea that we would say x knife was used in x way and y was or was not the knife used to cut patches with is absurd. People will use a sharp edge to do a job as needed. I’ve even seen people open paint cans with chisels

 

[Black Hand]

I’m missing something here. Where did I claim there were knifes that you or the historic record doesn’t say existed in this country. Out side of a passing reference to exotic blades that may have come in sailors belts this post gave no statement as to what sort of knifes were available.
Only the number of knifes that were in use. Just one knife per person would have been two million blades. It strikes me as absurd that one would attemp to say a knife owner did not use a knife in a way.
I’m sure in your life you have seen knifes misused,you may have misused a knife your self,I know I have. Now I use pre cut patches inshooting. A practice that was known in the old days. As was cutting at the muzzle. I find it a pia, some like it. The idea that we would say x knife was used in x way and y was or was not the knife used to cut patches with is absurd. People will use a sharp edge to do a job as needed. I’ve even seen people open paint cans with chisels

Your post I quoted wasn't clear where it was going...
A knife is a knife is a knife, and a knife is used to cut things. Yes, there are specialized knives for used particular purposes. Other than that, to give a knife some special name (i.e. patch knife) is in my opinion - silly. Simple solution - get a knife that cuts and looks period and use it for cutting....

 

[tenngun]

I don’t think you ever found me saying there were ‘patch knifes’. The op was if penny knifes were used to cut patches. Penny knifes existed in the past during this time period. People have answer that such a knife was inappropriate for patch cutting historically. I’m sorry but it’s absurd to say that a knife bought by some one in colonial times was only used in one way and not another.
Now we might argue on what penny knifes looked like compared to modren repos, but penny knifes were sold in eighteenth century America. I’m sure over time a deer was skinned with a penny knife at some time, bait cut up, pens sharpened, fingernails cleaned ect with such knifes.