Penny Knife for Patches?

[Dr5x]

There is an imbedded belief that in the past everybody in any given year used the same things as everybody else. As the year ended they all got the things appropriate for that year just like we use today. We are all driving 2018 vehicles and are getting ready to switch to the 1019 models.
Right/
In the colonial days a lot of things were made in this country by all sorts of different sources. In the beginning most hardware and manufactured products came from England. England wanted it that way. This stuff, both here and there came from a variety of sources and most of it differed from source to source.
Anything that would cut patching has to be acceptable as a strong possibility of having existed back in the old days. An electric powered knife could not possibly have existed back then and therefore would not becorrect historically in Jefferson's White House.


Dutch

I’m missing something here. Where did I claim there were knifes that you or the historic record doesn’t say existed in this country. Out side of a passing reference to exotic blades that may have come in sailors belts this post gave no statement as to what sort of knifes were available.
Only the number of knifes that were in use. Just one knife per person would have been two million blades. It strikes me as absurd that one would attemp to say a knife owner did not use a knife in a way.
I’m sure in your life you have seen knifes misused,you may have misused a knife your self,I know I have. Now I use pre cut patches inshooting. A practice that was known in the old days. As was cutting at the muzzle. I find it a pia, some like it. The idea that we would say x knife was used in x way and y was or was not the knife used to cut patches with is absurd. People will use a sharp edge to do a job as needed. I’ve even seen people open paint cans with chisels

 

[Black Hand]

There is an imbedded belief that in the past everybody in any given year used the same things as everybody else. As the year ended they all got the things appropriate for that year just like we use today.

Why do you think this? This is the furthest thing from what I believe, and is on its face, absurd. This is why items are given a date range for when they were in use. Look at the use of the neck-stock - here one decade, gone the next and back again a decade or two later. Still, clearly known and shown. Jackware is another example - in use, gone and then back again. And yet, recorded in literature.

In the colonial days a lot of things were made in this country by all sorts of different sources. In the beginning most hardware and manufactured products came from England. England wanted it that way. This stuff, both here and there came from a variety of sources and most of it differed from source to source.

Yes, and we know those sources and we also know the products supplied. Even so, this "stuff" was known, unique, recorded, sold and clearly identifiable...

 

[tenngun]

Well we have documentation showing belt knifes were used to cut patches. However I don’t know that 1) a folding knife was not at times stuck in a belt, or 2) if the shooter drew a folding knife from his bag or pocket would have been remarked on by the chronicler.
I’m not trying to duck any thing or saying what if. Just pointing out good folders, cheap folders, short knifes, big knifes, curved and straight knifes, double edged, after 1822 Spanish/ Mexican knifes shown up in the west, and how any one used them is how that person used them. And those most recorded about it was so and so had s knife.

 

[Black Hand]

Well we have documentation showing belt knifes were used to cut patches. However I don’t know that 1) a folding knife was not at times stuck in a belt, or 2) if the shooter drew a folding knife from his bag or pocket would have been remarked on by the chronicler.

Why does it matter what type of knife it is or where it was carried? Get a knife that is period-correct and use it....

 

[44-henry]

I personally do not think the past is as well documented as some here like to think. At this point I do not have any direct evidence to say that the so called "penny knives" were present in the colonies, but I would challenge Black Hand, or anyone else, to prove to me that they were not. My logic is that German immigrants were coming into this country by the 17th century. The Taschenfeitel (Austrian for pocket knife) such as was being made by several factories in Trattenbach would have been common throughout that region. As I stated above it is these knives that most closely resemble the penny knives that started this whole discussion and it is not hard for me to imagine that immigrants would have brought knives like this over here.

 

[Black Hand]

At this point I do not have any direct evidence to say that the so called "penny knives" were present in the colonies, but I would challenge Black Hand, or anyone else, to prove to me that they were not.

The FACT is that I am not required to prove anything as I HAVE NOT MADE A CLAIM. At this time, no evidence appears to exist to support their presence in the colonies and until evidence is provided/found, I am not obligated to accept your claim. As you are the one making the claim, it is SOLELY up to you to prove they were present. It is not my responsibility to prove something doesn't exist, as proving a negative is (dare I say), impossible. (

You may wish to review the concept "Burden of Proof" and attempting to shift said burden, which is exactly what you are trying to do... https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/222/Shifting-of-the-Burden-of-Proof

Or to state it succinctly - SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.
Until you do, all the speculation and wishful thinking on your part amount to nothing.

 

[Stophel]

"prove to me they didn't use it" is one very short step away from "if they'd a had it, they'd a used it".... actually, it may even be a step or two past...

The large majority of German immigrants to America were from the southwestern regions of the German lands (though as time went on, there were more and more from different regions). Not so much from present-day Austria. The major exception is the Salzburger Exulanten, Lutherans escaping forced expulsion by the Catholic authorities of Salzburg (not really that close at all to Trattenbach). Most went to Prussia and Holland, but a contingent of them decided to emigrate further to Georgia in 1734.

I couldn't prove that any one of these 300 souls didn't carry the "penny knife" in question, any more than I could prove that they didn't also have those Chinese razors...

 

[Bo T]

Let's not forget that the OP wanted to be as HC/PC as possible. That seems to change the level of certainty from 'logically.....' to 'it has been shown....'. From a mental determination (essentially a hypothesis) to physical evidence.

 

[yakipreacher]

Well .... I bought an original patch knife that was a part of the Nepal cache. They dated it to Napoleonic times. Possibly revolution, but more likely 1812 stuff. It was used and issued militarily for use with brown bess. I likely ruined its historic value when I sharpened it.... but it is mine and I thought it would be neat to use it as a patch knife myself, so that is what I did and do.

 

[Newtire]

I don’t think you ever found me saying there were ‘patch knifes’. The op was if penny knifes were used to cut patches. Penny knifes existed in the past during this time period. People have answer that such a knife was inappropriate for patch cutting historically. I’m sorry but it’s absurd to say that a knife bought by some one in colonial times was only used in one way and not another.
Now we might argue on what penny knifes looked like compared to modren repos, but penny knifes were sold in eighteenth century America. I’m sure over time a deer was skinned with a penny knife at some time, bait cut up, pens sharpened, fingernails cleaned ect with such knifes.

That's it! If you kids don't quit fighting, I'm going to put you over in the corner with gramma and have you chew buffalo hides while your mom & I go watch the hanging of those men they caught using tools for other than their intended purposes. You're already in trouble for trying to use your worn out britches for patching material.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

So, like so many of these little details of the hobby, it all boils down to “nobody knows for sure”.

Point taken, gang.

I’ll think I’ll just get one and tuck it smartly into my shooting pouch, and as David Crockett said, “then go ahead” with it. How do they actually serve as a knife? Are the Clay Smith penny knives serviceable and will they actually work as a decent patch knife? God only knows if such penny knives ever were used in this way, or when, and if these arguments and pages of discussion proved anything to me, it’s that none of us can agree on it.

But one thing is for certain, it’ll be more period than carrying my Spyderco Delica 4!

 

[Black Hand]

So, like so many of these little details of the hobby, it all boils down to “nobody knows for sure”.

Point taken, gang.

I’ll think I’ll just get one and tuck it smartly into my shooting pouch, and as David Crockett said, “then go ahead” with it. How do they actually serve as a knife? Are the Clay Smith penny knives serviceable and will they actually work as a decent patch knife? God only knows if such penny knives ever were used in this way, or when, and if these arguments and pages of discussion proved anything to me, it’s that none of us can agree on it.

That isn't what was said at all. What was said is that penny knives existed but not in the colonies. They are a knife and a knife can be used to cut patches. But still, evidence is lacking that penny knives were found or used in the colonies.

Short from: not correct for those of us reenacting on this side of the Atlantic (at least in the 18th century?)

 

[Mickc01]

If a hunter/farmer/anyone who used a flintlock in the last half of the 18th century were to be transported to the present and read this amazingly augmentative "discussion" about whatever knife he used to cut patches, I suspect he would be totally bumfuzzled at all the fuss. Again, this forum has shown that it has got to be in contention for the top spot where that proverbial dead dog is repetitively beat to death. Sheesh!

 

[tenngun]

It’s cold,rainy or snowing. Arguing over fringe length, or if frontiersmen ate their chocolate or just drank it, or any other silly argument onne can think of is more fun then the **** tube.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Wait.... there’s chocolate??

 

[tenngun]

It out sold tea and coffee combined. Though I got to say watching **** toob now.... major Dundee, smoking s pipe and drinking coffee right too. Oh and just made an order to track.

 

[Black Hand]

If a hunter/farmer/anyone who used a flintlock in the last half of the 18th century were to be transported to the present and read this amazingly augmentative "discussion" about whatever knife he used to cut patches, I suspect he would be totally bumfuzzled at all the fuss. Again, this forum has shown that it has got to be in contention for the top spot where that proverbial dead dog is repetitively beat to death. Sheesh!

Mick,
With all due respect - where is your contribution to the collective knowledge of this discussion?

It also appears that you don't really comprehend the actual point of the discussion which is to help the OP find a period-appropriate knife. Your beating comment is also very far off the mark. Why? Because there truly is a right way and a wrong way.

If you aren't interested in actually adding, you should perhaps refrain from commenting on something that appears to escape you....

 

[tenngun]

Mick,
With all due respect - where is your contribution to the collective knowledge of this discussion?

It also appears that you don't really comprehend the actual point of the discussion which is to help the OP find a period-appropriate knife. Your beating comment is also very far off the mark. Why? Because there truly is a right way and a wrong way.

If you aren't interested in actually adding, you should perhaps refrain from commenting on something that appears to escape you....

Is ones contribution of less important to conversation then another’s?
We are just big kids playing cowboys and Indians here.

 

[Black Hand]

Is ones contribution of less important to conversation then another’s?
We are just big kids playing cowboys and Indians here.

Considering Mick has merely complained and not contributed anything to the conversation, why should we bother with what he has to say?

 

[tenngun]

We’re all just blowing smoke here, vitural campfire bs session