Percussion firearm I.D.?

[dwillia29]

Hi,

I previously posted a few pics of an 18th (?) century Indian torador that belonged to my great aunt in the "matchlock" sub-forum.

They were a GREAT help in identifying the piece (given what little info was available) and I'm hoping you'll be able to do the same...

First, I *think* this is a percussion rifle, apologies if it's a flintlock. If so, mods please move.

Interestingly enough, while I was scouring the web for info on the abovementioned matchlock, I actually stumbled across what I believe to be this model rifle.

Unfortunately, I neglected to bookmark the page. :cursing:

What I do recall is that this piece is British, and based on the silver scrollwork/engraving, it's probably also a rifle that ended up in Indian hands.

Am I on the right track?

There's one marking that I can make out... a faint , calligraphy-esque stamp on the action that reads either "1806" or '1836".

Surprisingly (to me), the hammer spring is strong and it locks up securely in both the half and full-cock positions.

Can anyone tell me what model rifle this is? My recollection is that it's not particularly uncommon. Does the scrollwork (which I assume was done after the rifle was built) also appear to be of Indian origin?

Finally, any DIY restoration tips? And by that I mean mild, MILD restoration... basically just keeping it in it's current condition. I don't plan to spray it w/ a Brownell's bake-on finish or anything like that!

Thanks for your help! Any questions or further pic requests, feel free to ask!

-David

 

[50cal.cliff]

Wow, :shocked2: I'd guess you were right on all three accconts, caplock, British or posssibly German made and F&I period I would guess is about right.
Do you know the caliber?
Ian't no expert but tha's a fine piece! :thumbsup:

 

[James Rorar]

Nice gun. It looks like an 1853 Enfield too me, but I am far from an expert.
James

 

[smo]

Great gun the work on the silver does appear to be Indian . Have you tried to fire the gun? Hope it's not loaded I got my hands on one once that was !

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Parts of it appear to be from an Enfield and the decoration was applied later, maybe in India. The lock is 1853 or later--about a hundred years too late for the French and Indian War. I think I'd leave it be and hang it on the wall. Maybe work up a story about an ancestor and Gunga Din and old wars in far away lands....

 

[windwalker_au]

i would say 1853 enfield lock as well.did any one notice the rear sight is a peep.a nice find it will look good on the wall.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[dwillia29]

Wow you guys are good, thanks!

Is it possible that the date stamped on the action would be any other than "1853"? I ask because I can't quite make out the 3rd numeral, but it's probably not a "5".

I can't be 100% on this though. The date stamp was shallow to begin with and general wear/patina has made it illegible (at least w/ a cheap magnifying glass).

That said, I can say with the utmost certainty that the 4th numeral is not a "3". It's a "6". No question. Drugstore magnifying glasses don't lie. :wink:

Perhaps a Model 1853 Enfield manufactured in 1856/1866/etc?

Is it loaded? The thought didn't even cross my mind as I locked back the hammer and pressed the trigger for the first time in who knows how many decades.

If it had blown a whole through the wall, I wouldn't have believed my eyes. :shocked2:

Not sure of the caliber... How can I tell? Caliper the diameter of the bore?

Anyway, thanks again! I'll brush off some of the rust and figure out how to remove the "greenish" (?) stains on the metal.

It appears to have been handled a lot as the silver is worn away in places. Also, the spring is so strong because I think it's been replaced. Just noticed that the hammer screw is buggered...

Hmm... a backstory. Provenance. Good idea. I'll think of something other than my great aunt bought it abroad in the 1930s. :grin:

More to come (in other sub-forums). Thanks again!

-David

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It could be that the gun was made in 1856 or anywhere in the 1850-1865 time frame. Using inside calipers to measure the bore is a good idea. It is possible that the gun is a smooth bore, too.
As for a backstory, how about this: your aunt and Gunga Din and Indiana Jones fought off hordes of Thuggees and raging Sepoys and she kept the old musket as a remembrance? :rotf:

 

[faw3]

It could be any year, Ive got one of the East Indian Company rifles that looks like the short rifle but is/was the "Sapper/Miners short musket, the barrel is 30" and bayonet is 28" :blah: from here to here! it has 1841 on it but like all E.I.C. rifles could have any year stamped on it, this one is a 75 cal just put a ruler across the hole in barrel and ell us what it is and we can guess it out for you . Really a nice looking thing ya got,how long is that barrel. ( I thought I was smart getting one of a few they had but now the copy of the Sharps slant breech has just gone away , not sold out just gone off sale and no word why, it makes me wonder but that one always did with the sale to Brit of so many 1000's and no accounting of them?? FRED :hatsoff:

 

[Okwaho]

I believe the gun started out as a model 1842 British percussion musket. These were made until the 1853's came out. The 1842's were the the last to have fixed sights ,after that they used a leaf sight.The 1842 was the last smoothbore musket and had a bore of 0.75 caliber The almost identical model 1851 was rifled for the minie.It had a 0.70 caliber bore and long range rear sights. These two guns were the last British muskets to have pinned barrels rather than barrel bands.As to whether the gun could have been an East India Company musket,I don't know. If so it should have the standard markings with East India marks E I C somewhere,probably on the lock.I don't know who did all the gaudying up but it could be either India or North Africa,it's hard to say.With a gun like this I would just wipe it down with a damp rag,hang it on the wall and forget it. I would,however,suggest that the gun be checked to see if it's loaded.
D F Harding had a series of books, "Smallarms of the East India Company, 1600-1856"{1999} and in particular,Vol.IV. It's out of print and extremely pricey although one might try interlibrary loan.I hope this helps.
Tom Patton :bow: :v

 

[Old40Rod]

I vote for an Enfield that has been gussied up, or down, depending on your perspective. The lock, bolster and sideplate washers all look Enfieldish.

 

[jdstrang]

Is it loaded? The most important question asked.

Insert the ramrod or, absent that, a dowel rod of sufficient length in the muzzle until it stops. Mark that spot on the inserted device. Then remove it and lay it atop the barrel so that the mark is even with the muzzle. Note where the other end comes to rest. If it is empty, it should end where the breech plug/tang meets the barrel, behind the nipple. If there's something in there -- a load of powder, or a wad of 100-pound banknotes, it will stop considerably short.

My neighbor picked up a wallhanger kit-built percussion single shot a few years back, brought it over to show it to me. First thing I did was check it -- and found about 40 grains of powder sitting under a long-forgotten ball. Check, check, check!

 

[dwillia29]

I believe Okwaho/fw may be our winners!

:bow:

Based on their description, my guess is that it's an 1842 model as well. I cannot locate an example of an 1853 Enfield with fixed sights anywhere.

If Okwano's information is accurate (and thanks btw, I'll attempt to obtain a copy D.F. Hardings book), it appears to be an 1842 model.

The bore is 0.75. It's also a smoothbore, not rifled. The barrel is ~ 38" long and the OAL is ~53 1/2".

Unfortunately, I have yet to locate any mark whatsoever except the faint "18x6" stamp. I will keep looking though.

As to whether or not it's loaded, I violated the 1st rule of firearm safety and peered down the barrel with the aid of a high-lumen flashlight.

I immediately noticed an obstruction, so I followed pappa-bears instructions, removed the ramrod, and inserted it into the barrel.

It fell freely down past the nipple, so I don't believe it's loaded.

I then pointed the barrel toward the ground and out fell a bunch of rotting paper... Or something like that, I really can't tell.

Don't think it's a wad of 100 pound notes though!

However, upon further inspection, it seems to be a rolled-up piece of paper inserted about 3/4 of the way down the barrel. It's impossible for me to photograph (it's almost impossible to see unless the flashlight beam and barrel are lined up just so.)

I'm guessing that (although it looks like a sheet of rolled-up paper) it's probably the remains of cartridge paper? Anyway, I have no idea how to remove it -- and it's so fragile, even trying to do so would likely turn it to dust.

And as for a backstory, I'll forego the Indiana Jones route (!) and perhaps go w/ a more conventional Crimean War story; as my research indicates that this musket may very well have played a role in that conflict.

Possible, no?

If so, the engraving might be Turkish...

I'm a modern firearm guy all the way, but it's really fun to research and then speculate!

Thanks again!
David

 

[Okwaho]

I wouldn't try to buy the Harding book.It is hard to find and runs about $400.00 and may not help. I got my info largely from Jess Malott's Rifle Shoppe catalogue which is a good secondary reference source on European guns.I also consulted D.W.Bailey,"British Military Longarms 1815-1865",PP.36-37 and 66-67.This is a confusing area of British military firearms and I really think that the decoration is what makes this gun interesting and colorful.On reflection it may well have been decorated by an Indian Sepoy perhaps one of the mutineers in 1857 as an act of defiance against the British.I believe this could be some really fun research.
Tom Patton

 

[dwillia29]

Tom -

I plan to visit the NRA Firearm Museum in Fairfax, VA (only a few miles away) and ask the curator about that book, or similar tome that may shed some light on provenance.

Spending $400 -- or really anything for that matter -- is out of the question.

It's a shame my great aunt never told anyone how she came into possession of all these antique firearms. My mother only knows that she spent quite some time in the middle east many years ago.

My thinking is that it's quite likely that the person(s) she acquired this from knew "something" about it -- or, if not, at least had a prefabricated story for her!

Oh well, what's done is done. Good thing I love military history; you're right, this will be both fun and educational.

Thanks again everyone!
David

p.s. - i'm with you insofar as the decoration (and especially the lack of identifying markings) initially seems to be an act of defiance. at this juncture, i'm speculating that all markings were "polished" off to symbolically distance the rifle from the British.

 

[jdstrang]

Assuming you are an NRA member, take lots of detailed photos along as well for the curator to peruse. Seems we should be able to get good technical information from Mother NRA to counterbalance that steady drumbeat of fundraising pleas! :cursing:

 

[dwillia29]

Pappa-Bear,

Yes, I am an NRA member (and almost took a PR job w/ them some years back), but until the assn. stops playing defense and starts taking the ball toward the goal line, I'm paying my dues and that's it.

This is more for THR and Firing Line forums -- not so much muzzleloading! -- but they've been noticeably silent when it comes to CCW and "evil black rifles" here in Maryland (/end rant). :wink:

In any event, I'm going to clean it up a bit and drive it down there when I go to their range this weekend.

As you may have guessed, if it wasn't for stumbling upon my great-aunt's cache of antique weaponry, I'd be on the FAL forum right now!

I appreciate antique firearms (and anything w/ history for that matter), but I'm not a collector. Just don't have much interest w/ firearms that don't have either direct familial lineage -- like our civil war relics -- or utilitarian potential.

Once I'm able to determine, more or less, the background of this piece, I'll probably sell it (if saleable) or donate it to the NRA museum (if they have any interest).

Probably a tiresome question on this forum, but here goes: Any idea how much this might be worth?

My thinking is that this would have to find just the right buyer, e.g., an Indian immigrant who wanted to hang it on his wall! And there's quite a large population of Indians in the DC area... Assuming it is Indian of course.

Sound about right?

I want someone to appreciate this -- I really don't care how much I get for it -- I just want it to have a good home. I'd take care of it, but I just wouldn't give it the love and adoration it deserves. :wink:

Thanks again folks. You've been terrific!

-David

 

[Okwaho]

With your mother having spent some time in the Middle East I wouldn't be suprised to learn that this gun was decorated in North Africa or someplace nearby.Either way it would make a nice wall hangar
Tom Patton