Percussion Hammer Cam (Divot)?

[Curtis Lee]

On the revolver in question (a 2016 ,1861 Navy ,Uberti)(FRIDAY @3:25 built) I have followed De land and your instructions. Even with the small divot in the cam I have it functioning good. Here's what it sounds like. first click/ Half cock,second click the bolt contacting the lead in,3rd click is the bolt hitting full notch,4 forth click is full cock. I realize this is not how you wanted it be as stated( the bolt hitting the notch and full cock should be close to simultaneous.) My other 1862 Uberti navy(2021) is 3 clicks and the last two are so close it almost sounds like a two click gun. BTW I have reduced the bolt spring screws by at lease 1/8 to 1/4 turn on all my pistols after reading your posts. Hoping to minimize any more damage to the hammer cam.Also the 2021 pistol has no cam damage. Thanks Guys for the help.

 

[45D]

Can these revolvers be made to function where you can get say 100 shots out of one following normal cleaning and lubing. I have a few of these and I can’t imagine from the replicas that I own that many must have struggled with them back in the day. I have two colt gen 2s I believe an 1851 and 1860 are they any better there like a piece of rock candy that’s not for eating but looking at LoL. Back to the dimple I would think they are pressed in and could be replaced with a hardened one do you do work like that. The gen 2 colts i thare or were made by Ubertie.

Joemolf, Yessssss !!!! You can run um 200 rounds each per range trip if you want (and not clean inside from now on !!!) !!! It's all about the setup!
You can fan um occasionally if you want to . . .
I know, it's a shame they don't come from the factory able to do this but NO S.A. can do that from the factory.

As far as 2nd Gen Colt's, they are '70's made revolvers and are the same inside as all the other '70's Italian guns. In fact, I'm just finishing three S.S. '60 Army 2nd Gens. (same customer) and they're probably among the WORST revolvers ever to work on!!! I'm not a collector and I wouldn't have one !!!! But that's just me!!
I think if you'll stay tuned to this thread, you'll get some "how to's" that will make your revolvers run better.

Mike

 

[Joemolf]

Joemolf, Yessssss !!!! You can run um 200 rounds each per range trip if you want (and not clean inside from now on !!!) !!! It's all about the setup!
You can fan um occasionally if you want to . . .
I know, it's a shame they don't come from the factory able to do this but NO S.A. can do that from the factory.

As far as 2nd Gen Colt's, they are '70's made revolvers and are the same inside as all the other '70's Italian guns. In fact, I'm just finishing three S.S. '60 Army 2nd Gens. (same customer) and they're probably among the WORST revolvers ever to work on!!! I'm not a collector and I wouldn't have one !!!! But that's just me!!
I think if you'll stay tuned to this thread, you'll get some "how to" that will make your revolvers run better.

Mike

Thanks! The Gen 2 Colts I bought the one came in a beautiful box not the boxes that Taylors sell. Like I said they are like rock candy not for eating just for looking at I watched Josey Wales again last week end; love the Old Chief’s analogy!

200 rounds per range time that is exactly what I’ve always wanted! When I got started with the old Colts I was not a member here and the only thing which wasn’t bad was a pdf series on line on how to set up your Pietta 1851 revolver maybe Ubertie two it’s been about 10 years maybe less. I have them on some drive somewhere. Anyway thanks I’ll be watching. Cheers

 

[M. De Land]

45D and Mike I know you’re are experts with these and was wondering if you know if that cam should be heat treated. I realize they are case hardened but the case hardening IMO doesn’t hold up on any of these critical parts from revolvers to rifles it’s one of the reasons I don’t use them as much anymore; get them dialed in and at some point something goes array and the timing goes out. Not end of the world stuff. I’ve purchased several replacement triggers probably have a few in stock including hands bolts springs and other. I know from experience you have to be very gentle with the bolt as I’ve snapped a couple applying the slightess pressure. Ias I mentioned I have purchased factory Ubertie hammers and the cams are different on all of them. I’m fine with that as I suspect these revolvers required a lot of fitting at the factory. What bothers me is once the case hardening is done they wear exceptionally fast. Do you and others that know the ins and outs of these revolvers address say the cam wearing issue. Then those garbage hands that come in the revolvers junk metal. Fortunately I discovered KristConverts makes a hand out of real metal that doesn’t wear out after a few uses. Other examples would be my Ubertie 1873 rifle the sears on those are so soft that after the case hardening wears off you can end up with a rifle where you can feel the trigger pull becoming softer and softer to the point you can blow the trigger and the gun will fire. Same with the lifter cam on the lever once that case hardening wears away or is purposely removed they go south really fast. Can these revolvers be made to function where you can get say 100 shots out of one following normal cleaning and lubing. I have a few of these and I can’t imagine from the replicas that I own that many must have struggled with them back in the day. I have two colt gen 2s I believe an 1851 and 1860 are they any better there like a piece of rock candy that’s not for eating but looking at LoL. Back to the dimple I would think they are pressed in and could be replaced with a hardened one do you do work like that. The gen 2 colts i thare or were made by Ubertie.

I've had to make a lot of springs over the last 40 plus years and a fair amount of gun parts (sears, triggers,wedges and now a hammer cam. I use a lot of A-2 tool steel now days for such gun parts as it is very stable dimension-ally with the air quench and can be made file hard.
I haven't needed to build a new hammer or bolt yet but don't think I'd have much trouble doing so if needed. Both need to be hardened or they batter and wear quickly, especially the cam.
Case hardening works fine if you have good carbon content and use real bone charcoal and enough heat. Most folks want the case colors but the colors and case depth are anathema to each other in charcoal casing which is why they tend to be soft . The colors start south much past 1400 F. and quench in aerated water. A good case depth needs 1600 F and oil quench to get the job done really well but the color will disappear and come out gray .
Differential hardening can be used on 8620 I have read but not tried it.
So how did the originals get the color and still have enough hardness to resist quick wear? My guess is cyanide casing which I know very little about.

 

[45D]

Thanks! The Gen 2 Colts I bought the one came in a beautiful box not the boxes that Taylors sell. Like I said they are like rock candy not for eating just for looking at I watched Josey Wales again last week end; love the Old Chief’s analogy!

200 rounds per range time that is exactly what I’ve always wanted! When I got started with the old Colts I was not a member here and the only thing which wasn’t bad was a pdf series on line on how to set up your Pietta 1851 revolver maybe Ubertie two it’s been about 10 years maybe less. I have them on some drive somewhere. Anyway thanks I’ll be watching. Cheers

Yes, that was the Larson Pettifogger instructions dealing with the short arbor problems.

 

[Curtis Lee]

M. De Land ,I was wondering about the "push back" as the BAD CAM gun has none. While the the Good gun has just a hint of "push back"​

Also what do you think of my 4 click results on the bad cam gun?

 

[45D]

I like and set the timing up for early bolt drop to dampen lock up inertia into the notches.

How early? Again, that's the hand's job to put the brakes on the cyl for lockup. ( it's in you Kuhnhausen book).

I also prefer and set up the hand length to push a bit past bolt lock up as this alloys some wear in length without straining anything.

I would submit that the "wear" happens because the hand is trying to push a locked up cylinder. You can alleviate the wear by hardening the end (if your spring is mounted) or, if you use a Ruger type setup, hardening the whole thing (since the dorsal side is a bearing surface).

It must be remembered that at lock up the hand is past the 90 degree ratchet tooth contact and is into the back angel of the tooth. I want them snug with out any jamming pressure.

I agree and even with 2 fingered hand's. I think the hands could have more width. There tends to be too much "wobble room" which can lead to a different "feel" ( and possible function fail) when cycling the revolver in different positions ie laying left vs right.
For single finger hands I try to give them a slight inward bend if they are on the thin side. Worst case I'll make a thicker one. With 2 fingered hands, I've gotten into just making them if the original is thin. You waste too much time bending/ stretching on one trying to get it to work. 2 fingered hand's are found on unmentionables and factory conversions. The conversions we do ourselves though are tasked with working with the original single finger hand. That's ok if the "new" cyl is a 6 shot but it's a lot to ask going from 6 to 5. The 2 finger hand makes more sense and is more "cycle length" friendly since cyl rotation can be retarded slightly with the second finger catching up the difference.

Mike

 

[45D]

M. De Land ,I was wondering about the "push back" as the BAD CAM gun has none. While the the Good gun has just a hint of "push back"​

Also what do you think of my click results on the bad cam gun?

What "push back"? I missed something. Sounds like your hand is a little short ( having a fourth click) but you pointed that out so, good that you know that.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

How early? Again, that's the hand's job to put the brakes on the cyl for lockup. ( it's in you Kuhnhausen book).


I would submit that the "wear" happens because the hand is trying to push a locked up cylinder. You can alleviate the wear by hardening the end (if your spring is mounted) or, if you use a Ruger type setup, hardening the whole thing (since the dorsal side is a bearing surface).


I agree and even with 2 fingered hand's. I think the hands could have more width. There tends to be too much "wobble room" which can lead to a different "feel" ( and possible function fail) when cycling the revolver in different positions ie laying left vs right.
For single finger hands I try to give them a slight inward bend if they are on the thin side. Worst case I'll make a thicker one. With 2 fingered hands, I've gotten into just making them if the original is thin. You waste too much time bending/ stretching on one trying to get it to work. 2 fingered hand's are found on unmentionables and factory conversions. The conversions we do ourselves though are tasked with working with the original single finger hand. That's ok if the "new" cyl is a 6 shot but it's a lot to ask going from 6 to 5. The 2 finger hand makes more sense and is more "cycle length" friendly since cyl rotation can be retarded slightly with the second finger catching up the difference.

Mike

You've probably heard me talk somewhere along the line but perhaps not that hand width is nearly as important as length which is why I fit them long and as they go into the ratchet tooth back angle and are slightly cam-ed outward toward the outside chimney wall on the smoothed up outer top edge which snugs up the notch contact on the bolt laterally. As the hammer drops the hand is retracted allowing the bolt to neutralize tension to center in the bolt notch. I don't want a jamb just a bottoming contact that snugs things up, holds notch center and has a built in mating and wear factor. This bit of added length for wear and mating ,aids in hand nose/tooth angle contact which is less than perfect when hand filed.
This is where the cylinder feel test while loading rotation makes sure the hand is actually pressing into lock up not just rotation inertia.
Remember that in final lock up the hand nose is contacting the ratchet tooth on the inboard side of the hand body width which is closer to the center of rotation thus loosing leverage but gaining speed and travel of rotation. This is the reason some revolvers won't go into final lock up with fouling present as the rotation inertia is doing the work when clean that the hand length and width is supposed to be doing.
I never have paid much attention to clicks and their timing sequence, just fit and function probably because I don't hear that well and can't rely on it. Besides that it doesn't really mean much as it is directly attributable to inter related parts fit and tolerances which are not uniformly consistent.
With dual step hands one has two contact points to fit against the ratchet tooth as the first step starts the rotation and hands off to the second in to final lock up. The first tooth now slides off the tooth reverse angle at the stroke top.
This is where ratchet tooth filing is not for the faint of heart as it is the third and most important contact point often needing adjustment. All the teeth in the ratchet need to be equalized/adjusted to the lowest tooth which means consistency of angle and height tooth to tooth. I generally use a fine tooth Barret file and finish up with a fine diamond file then lap wear with heavy grease in repeat cycling until all is smooth and functioning under rotation tension-ing . I've not yet used lap compound for final mate up but think it would speed things up and probably make as good or better mating.
On another opinion concerning hand function I still prefer the original spring design over a spring and plunger tension-er and believe it to be just as reliable and smoother of operation if made of stainless spring stock.

 

[M. De Land]

What "push back"? I missed something. Sounds like your hand is a little short ( having a fourth click) but you pointed that out so, good that you know that.

Mike

Me too, push back?

 

[Curtis Lee]

45D this where I got the "Push back".
M De Land said"I like and set the timing up for early bolt drop to dampen lock up inertia into the notches.
I also prefer and set up the hand length to push a bit past bolt lock up as this allows some wear in length without straining anything."

 

[Curtis Lee]

PUSH BACK was my interpretation of "hand length to push a bit past bolt lock"
MY NEWB is hanging out.Opps

 

[Curtis Lee]

I will do better in the nomenclature.

 

[Curtis Lee]

To reiterate the "cam gun" has no apparent over push or travel of the cylinder at full cock (THAT CAN BE SEEN BY EYE). But there is a minute amount of hammer travel past full cock1/16to1/8".

It still has 4 clicks!!

 

[Curtis Lee]

When referring to hand nose which surface are we talking about ?#1 or#2?

 

[M. De Land]

To reiterate the "cam gun" has no apparent over push or travel of the cylinder at full cock (THAT CAN BE SEEN BY EYE). But there is a minute amount of hammer travel past full cock1/16to1/8".

It still has 4 clicks!!

Oh, that is the nose of the hand sliding off the back angle of the tooth at the top of the hammer stroke. As long as the bolt will drop into full notch depth while your putting some tension on the cylinder rotation all is well.
Looking at your chewed up hammer cam though I don't think the adjustment will last long as the bolt finger has grooved it which means it's to soft.

 

[M. De Land]

When referring to hand nose which surface are we talking about ?#1 or#2?View attachment 294786

Mainly #2 but #1 and its front angle will have some relation because it can limit depth of tooth contact.

 

[Curtis Lee]

Oh, that is the nose of the hand sliding off the back angle of the tooth at the top of the hammer stroke. As long as the bolt will drop into full notch depth while your putting some tension on the cylinder rotation all is well.
Looking at your chewed up hammer cam though I don't think the adjustment will last long as the bolt finger has grooved it which means it's to soft.

I have done "the cylinder feel test" and in fact I can feel pressure of hand at time of lock -up and at full cock and a minuscule amount on over travel of hammer past full cock. I think you are right that I may have timed right now,but after a range trip that cam problem will exacerbate.
One good thing is I have another good working example of the same pistol to compare to.
Hopefully IT"S geometry won't chew up the cam. I think I enjoy tinkering as much as shooting.

When I was 8yrs old my Dad brought me home a toy he made me while working at Cape Canaveral. It was a box with 10 switches and 10 red neon lights and 2 6v batteries. Simulating a rocket count down to blast off. Ask me how I knew there was 2 6V batteries inside. He was nun to happy with me, the next day when got home from work to find it disassembled on kitchen counter.LOL DNA?
Thanks Guys for the feedback and help.

 

[Joemolf]

Yes, that was the Larson Pettifogger instructions dealing with the short arbor problems.

Correct!

 

[45D]

I never have paid much attention to clicks and their timing sequence, just fit and function probably because I don't hear that well and can't rely on it. Besides that it doesn't really mean much as it is directly attributable to inter related parts fit and tolerances which are not uniformly consistent.

Ok sir, I'm sorry you don't hear the "clicks" that well and believe me, I'm becoming more and more aware of my "diminishing" hearing ( so is my Wife !! Yikes!!) but, they are a tell tale of "what / when" is going on. They didn't set a bunch of parts out in front of some "assemblers" and say "make these work". There is a definite build /correct timing sequence for the Colt action. It's spelled out really well in the Kuhnhausen book ( complete with "clicks").

With a SAA ( 4 clicks), you can "see" the clicks.
1st - safety notch = trigger moves forward.
2nd - half cock notch = trigger moves forward again.
3rd - bolt drops = you can see it "drop" on the cylinder.
4th - full cock notch = trigger moves forward AND the bolt falls in the notch simultaneously.

The exact same thing happens with the cap gun minus the safety notch . . . ( 3 clicks). That's why all Colts from the factory sound the same . . . they have "correct" timing . . . So do all mine and those I've set up.

The bolt dropping in an open-top can't be seen so the visual is -

and lockup is -

The notch is on the left side of the hammer slot/left recoil shield cut at drop, on the ring of that line at full cock/ lockup.
(That's for a six shooter)

Mike