Percussion Shotgun Field Habits

[PaulF70]

A longtime modern smokeless shooter, after owning an inline muzzie for some time, I decided to take the plunge into true vintage guns. I bought an Uberti 1958 Remington and also the gun I've wanted for years, a Pedersoli side-by-side percussion scattergun (12Ga).

I've read quite a lot about shooting these things. I have all three sizes of cards/wads - .02, .125, .5.

The gun is modified & full choke. I waited a lot time to get a heavily choked Pedersoli because I intend this as a turkey gun. I was lucky enough to get a spring tag this year.

I am wondering what a good starting load is. First, I'm not sure the equal-volume-powder-and-shot rule applies for turkey loads. 80gr FFg is about the limit on powder so that is settled. I thought I would start with 1.5 oz #4 lead shot. Let me know if I am way off on that please.

Second, I'm now wondering if plastic shot cups are the way to go. I am certainly hoping to get decent 45 if not 50Y patterns out of the Full side. Do these work better than the lubed .5" wad? (I already have many hundreds of these wads.)

Now I know everybody's gonna say "you've just got to pattern the gun", I know, I just want a good starting point.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Read the thread on the Skychief load. The plastic cup can leave plastic clogging up the barrel. Also you need to slit the sides so the cup can open up after it leaves the barrel. Look for information about paper shot cups. You need to slit the sides on the brown paper cup so the cup falls away.

Actually look at your 12 gauge shot shell for a starting load. A 3 dram charge of black powder is 82.2 grains. Use your modern equivalence of shot.

 

[Britsmoothy]

First off.
Pedersoli say 1&1/4oz max ( but that never stopped me putting 1&1/2oz in when I wanted), the later models have much thicker barrels.
If you can even get a plastic fantastic past the chokes use a firewall to stop the plastic melting.
Considering it has chokes I would put the plastic wads in the recycling trash and just use a few over shot cards as a wad because the they load easy past chokes!
Oh and stick to under 40yds to save disappointment!

 

[andy52]

I have a Pedersoli 12ga but it has screw in chokes which makes loading a little easier because full chokes are difficult to get a wad past. I carry a extra cylinder bore choke tube with me and remove the full put the cyl bore in load and replace with full. I use 90 grs FF and 1 1/4 oz shot. I have never tried plastic wads so can't help you there.

 

[PaulF70]

Thanks for all the replies.

I never thought even a WAD might have trouble getting past a full choke! Oh man, I hope I didn't buy the wrong gun!

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Paul, I shoot muzzleloaders in the field and at targets quite a lot, but have no real experience with turkey loads. Your starting point looks reasonable to me. I shoot an ounce of 7.5 or 6 shot over 70-72 grains of FFg while training dogs on pigeons, chukar, and pheasant. Works great out to 25 yards, and nothing I've tried works much beyond that. (I've used that load in 12, 20, and 10 gauge Pedersolis. The old 12 weighs 5 pounds 14.5 ounces empty and it's all the load you want in that light gun.)

Obviously, for turkey, you are looking to tighten patterns as much as possible. A venerable poster here, who went by "Brown Bear" found that Fg powder (usually about 10% more that FFFg) consistently gave him better patterns. He would have known, so I would advise investing in a pound of Fg. With the full and modified choke you may well need to turn the wads sideways to get them through the full choke. Plastic wads may be difficult to impossible to get through full choke. (I've had some good results in a 14 gauge using a card wad under just the shot cup of a a claybusters AA 12 gauge wad, even though the gas seal end was too tight to load. I just cut the wads with a kitchen knife.) Brown Bear used plastic wads, but with a card wad under them, and he says he never had a plastic problem this way. My experience has been that it significantly reduces, but does not eliminate, plastic build-up. By the way, the plastic cleans out easily enough with a nylon brush after a short flush/soak. My pretty extensive experience has been that after 12 to 28 shots in a bore (depending on the particular gun and wads) it gets pretty hard to load, and a little more involved to clean.

Range. Black powder is a very different propellant from smokeless powder (apparently the flame front is subsonic). My life got a whole lot better when I stopped thinking, "My Merkel would drop birds at 50 yards, this should too!" and started to accept that "25 yards is about it with this gun." After that I found that I didn't need 1300 fps, I didn't need #5 shot (at 20 yards 7 1/2 dropped pheasant very dead), one ounce was enough, and my flinch went away. At 20-25 yards everything worked, and it was fun. At 35 yards everything was frustration.

 

[andy52]

Thanks for all the replies.

I never thought even a WAD might have trouble getting past a full choke! Oh man, I hope I didn't buy the wrong gun!

The diameter of the wads are the same as a cyl bore which the gun is at the breech if the were the same as a full diameter they wouldn't seat well down that far.

 

[Historian]

Sir, let me make this real easy for you. Number one, do not be lazy and settle for second best. So that being said ditch the paper products. I have gotten Mod to light Full patterns out to 40 yards in all my Pedersoli doubles with this combination. It works in all of them. No BS.
Leather over powder wad cut slightly larger than bore diameter. 1/8 inch or 1/4 inch. I use mm Osborn punches as this gives me slightly over bore size wads.
1/4 inch to 1/2 inch wool felt wad soaked in either bore butter or olive oil and beeswax. Mixed to your own specific requirements. Use the wad punch to cut these out as well.
Shot of your choosing. Like Britsmoothy said a Pedersoli 12 can handle 1 1/2 oz easily.
Finish the load column with another lubed wool felt wad to seal the bore.
It is not rocket science but you do need to pattern. That means 5 shots per barrel with each given load column at the range you intend to shoot. Shoot from a sitting position like you would be turkey hunting. Put the effort into feeding your Pedersoli what it likes and not just what is cheap and easy and you will reap the just rewards for your effort. I hunt waterfowl, squirrel, rabbit, dove, quail, and deer. I have no problems and can keep up with anyone shooting a modern cartridge shotgun to about 40 yards max. No BS.
As for Turkey specifically, I keep the right barrel loaded for close head shots =< 25 yards. My Left barrel is loaded for body shots. Here in AL we are allowed to use #2 and smaller shot so I keep # 2 bismuth ready for just that purpose. I have used nickel plated 4's in the past.
These people who state erroneously that muzzleloading shotguns and fowlers are limited to 25 to 30 yards with loose shot are wrong. Loaded properly with the right components any Muzzleloading Shotgun or fowler is easily a 40 yard gun.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have a pederosoli sxs 12 gauge I bought in 1972 and find it shoots quite well with 75 grain FF and 1&1/4 ounce shot (#6 for rabbits and pheasants, #4 for goose and turkey) I load powder, leather wad and shot in a paper cartridge made from three thickness newspaper tied shut with kite string. Have fun with yours trying several combinations to find what works for you.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You can get the 12 gauge over shot cards past the full choke restriction. In fact, you can use only the thin over shot cards. Use a stack of 4 over shot cards as your over powder card and your over powder wad. Add the shot. Put a nick in the edge of the final over shot card to let the air flow past and get through the choke. You may want to use Skychief's recommended oiled wad over the shot instead of the final over shot card.

 

[PaulF70]

I have a pederosoli sxs 12 gauge I bought in 1972 and find it shoots quite well with 75 grain FF and 1&1/4 ounce shot (#6 for rabbits and pheasants, #4 for goose and turkey) I load powder, leather wad and shot in a paper cartridge made from three thickness newspaper tied shut with kite string. Have fun with yours trying several combinations to find what works for you.

If only someone sold those.

I have less time than money.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

PaulF70. If you bought a Muzzle loader with chokes, You Definately bought the Wrong Gun.. OLD DOG..

 

[Grenadier1758]

If only someone sold those.

I have less time than money.

The "those" being leather wads and newspaper shot cups.

To find these items for sale takes a bit of searching, but the search can be successful.
Its not really a lot time to be spent making these items.

A trip to Harbor Freight or a search on Amazon for a punch set will result in a find of a 3/4" round punch.
Hollow Punch Set, 9 Pc. (harborfreight.com)

A visit to a leather goods store or a Goodwill resell it shop can result in belt leather or an old heavy leather purse to supply the 3/4" round leather wads.

A trip to the kitchen cam come back with some cooking oil so you can soak the wads. If you are not allowed to take the expensive extra virgin olive oil, then go to a Dollar store and buy a bottle of olive oil. While there, you can buy one of the dollar books with a lot of pages to make the paper tubes, a spool of thread and some tube glue to glue the edges of paper (glue is optional). If you don't like the books, then buy a newspaper on the way home.

You will need a 3/4" dowel rod to make a former to wrap the paper around. Cut off about 6" of dowel, put a wood screw in the one end and turn the section of rod with your drill while sanding or filing it down to about 0.710" diameter or six thicknesses of newspaper less than the bore of the shotgun. (Preferably cylinder bore but the full choke diameter will work too).

There are many threads here on the forum on making paper cartridges for the rest of the details.

In the end, you will be more satisfied with the results than if you could find someone selling the

 

[ohio ramrod]

i use a 5/8 dowel rod for rolling the paper cartridge and leather scraps for making the wads. Yes, it takes a little time, but shooting muzzle loaders is not a hobby for people who are in a hurry. I find making your components and acceseries is part of the game we play.

 

[PaulF70]

PaulF70. If you bought a Muzzle loader with chokes, You Definately bought the Wrong Gun.. OLD DOG..

So Pedersoli doesn't know what they're doing?

 

[megasupermagnum]

So Pedersoli doesn't know what they're doing?

Yes, they do. Lots of people try and bog things down because chokes are a post-civil war invention. This forum allows discussion on chokes, so it is fair game.

In every shotgun I've tried now, 1Fg powder has patterned significantly better than 2Fg. Some people say it makes no difference, but I've never met anyone who claimed 2Fg or even 3Fg patterned better. I'd pass on #4 shot, you are handi-capping yourself with it. I would strongly suggest #6 shot. Even #7.5 has been used for many years, and it will penetrate a turkeys paper thin skull and will break its neck at 40 yards. #6 works even farther. With a 1 1/2 oz load, #4 only has 202 pellets, yet #6 has 337. Once in a while a gun will pattern better with #5, so it is worth a shot, but I believe #4 is a waste of time. Use good quality magnum shot, not chilled shot, or Eagle brand shot. Lawrence or West Coast is the good stuff. Forget messing with plastic wads. I've tried them in every muzzleloader I've used, and despite the claims, I have yet to have a plastic wad pattern well. They are usually quite poor. I've heard great things about paper wrap cartridges for containing shot, but have not tried them myself. What does work consistently well is the Skycheif load. You don't want anything with a bunch of cushion under the shot. Best results are usually had with a few hard card wads. Either nitro cards, or thick paper, some even use a stack of a number of think overshot cards.

 

[PaulF70]

Thanks. I have a ton of 2F but might as well try the 1F.

Luckily I have mostly #6 shot as well.

I had to google "Skycheif load." Learned something again.

 

[PaulF70]

FYI on the "Sky Chief Load":

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/skychief-load-works.110799/

 

[Historian]

Yes, 1Fg will pattern good but at significant lower velocity. It is good at pushing heavy loads. I own a chronograph and run my loads over it. I use 2Fg and 3Fg and have no issues. Good luck to you sir.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have had issues with power from my course powder ( about 1f). Not saying every one does but I tried mixing some finer grade with it and wow! That wakes it up! Not patterned it though.