Period Correct??????????????

This orta git some stuff started. :crackup: :crackup:
Period correct: I posit that NO ONE is really period correct in a traditional sense.
In SPIRIT, yes, in reality NO!
In order to satisfy some of the period correct advocates we are "wrong" if we use a Thompson Center caplock to hunt deer.
I disagree. We ARE p/c in spirit.
In order to truley be 100% p/c one would have to make a rifle barrel from flat steel bars hammer/heat welded like they did hundredS of years ago.
How many "p/c" rifles were built using electric tools, modern steels, premade barrels, modern browning solutions, modern cast furniture and so on ad nausium.
To me it's the SPIRIT of the tradition we carry on.
Some of the p/c Nazi's have an artificial Christmass tree. :nono:
I feel just as traditional with my Thompson Center Hawken, GM fast twist barrel loaded with T-7 ( huh?) and a 405 Powerbelt as I do with my 1720's Jeager flinter and Swiss Powder using a HORNADY patched r/b.
Rebutal????????????????????

 

[Claude Mathis]

You are absolutely correct. No one can be 100 percent period correct.

No point in rebutting or debating the blatantly obvious.

:m2c:

P.S. Nice troll.

 

[glazer1972]

Ima sorta new round these here parts so mya thinkin don't count fer much but them thar HORNADY roundball are cold swaged not cast so they aren't too pc either! :sorry: No offense Hornady balls will probably be my choice in my not so pc tc renegade w/ gm .58 bbl with those not so pc adjustable sights that is currently being restocked at tc that I am waiting somewhat impatiently on.

 

Gee whiz boss. I'm just tryin' to start a loving and brotherly debate here.
One never knows where a healthy brain storming sesson will lead hey?
Of course it's blatantly obvious ( I don't know what them thar big word mean, but is sounds really impressive to me.)
"Nice troll." Wassat mean? We fishin' fer walleye?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Who you callin wall-eyed? I''se got blew-eyes. One blew East, one blew West . . .

Unless it's a judged or "restricted" event you can shrug it off when rubbing elbows with a bunch of uppity folks who think they've finally got it correct and have therefore, somehow, earned the right to belittle others and their gear. It only matters to one person. We'd all be a bit happier if folks would wait to be asked for advice before they start pourin it out. On the other hand, some are just trying to help and it only appears that they are lording over you; you plebian miscreant. No one gives out grief quite like someone who went through it themselves. Human nature. Even dogs and chickens establish a pecking order.

 

I'm not even going to argue with you Maxiball. You are just trying to pick a fight when you know you are deficient in your thinking processes. You are comparing apples to green beans.

That's all right! You can be wrong if you want too! :m2c:

We are all PC only up to a certain point. We agree on that point and hold to it. The point of agreement might be 1840. Cap locks are fine for that agreed point.

If your agreed point is 1803, a caplock will violate the spirit of being PC.

I work at sites holding to 1780. I follow their standards.

I work at Civil war sites. I follow their standards.

The standards are different, but not wrong at the sites where they are established.

It is the introduction of incorrect gear into an unacceptable time frame that actually causes the trouble. When something just dosen't look right from across the yard everyone else is having trouble maintaining their PC "spirit". We often use what we call the "ten foot rule". (if it looks OK at ten feet, go for it)

Most of the thread nazis are persons with some severe power and control issues! ( this is an observation based on years of experience as both a historian and a theripist working with behavior disorders!) We have to have the ten foot rule to keep them in line! Most of them "do not play with others well". Often they get out of the hobby because "No one will do anything right!"

If I am hunting and wish to use a plastic sabboted slug in my jagger rifle, that is my own business.

If I am competing in a match that allows PRB only I am expected to use only PRB or I cannot gain a score. My use of a plastic sabbot there becomes everyone's business and a "bullet nazi" (range officer) will be all over me in an instant.

Blowing down the bore was common practice in the 18th and 19th centuries. Out in the field you can blow down your bore between shots and no one cares. You will be asked to leave an NMLRA range if you blow down the bore between shots. A "safty nazi" will get you!!

If you can't follow the rules you do not get to play the game. Sometimes you can cheat and get away with it, but you violate the spirit of the game. Eventually someone will notice that your basket ball goal is only 6' from the ground, your 100yd range is only 85 paces long and your vollyball net is way too low.

It's all a game. We accept the rules and agree to abide by them, or we go to a place that has rules we can accept. If no such place exists, we do not get to play.

:results:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Gee whiz boss. I'm just tryin' to start a loving and brotherly debate here.

No problem. You asked for feedback. ::

I just see this as a subject that doesn't require debate or attempts to convince others. From past experience, it appears that there are two camps. Those that attempt to achieve a "personal level" of historical accuracy and those that don't. Both attitudes are perfectly acceptable to me. Who cares what others do?

The problem comes when the two camps try to justify themselves. It's like the In-Line/Traditional factions. Who cares? Shoot what you want and I'll do the same. There is no right or wrong here.

If someone wants advice on In-Line weapons, they can visit the In-Line Forum. If they want advice on how to be more historically accurate in their 1760 persona, we have areas for that. The reason we have those distinctive categories should be obvious. It's a "birds of a feather" thing.

Ghost said it well, "It's all a game. We accept the rules and agree to abide by them, or we go to a place that has rules we can accept".

I would never suggest that someone be forced to join a game they don't wish to play. By the same token, when I'm playing, don't run on the field and disrupt the game. :winking:

 

I agree to a point. I try to be reasonably PC to the mid 1700s. This means that I do not carry or use gear that wasn't available then. This means that I shoot a flintlock, for example, of a style typical of that period. It means I wear clothes typical of that period in both fabric and style/construction. When I did later fur trade era stuff, I adjusted gear and guns for that era. The first rifle I made was made without the use of power tools and using only old time techniques. True enough, the barrel was store-bought, but so were many old time barrels. Supposedly the first barrel factory in Lancaster was set up in the early 1700's. Only a few gunmakers did everything--"lock, stock and barrel". I have no problem with the TC Hawkin at late fur trade events. It does not represent the true Hawkin, but does resemble other rifles of the late fur trade period. It would definitely be out of place at a F&IWar event. I shoot only roundballs with real BP and use tallow for patch and lube like the old timers. I do this because I want to try to see what it was like then, and inlines, pellets and sabots won't do it for me. Like someone already said: to each his own. I like history, I like the old guns, I enjoy trying to relive a little of a period of my interest--as much as is possible in these modern times.

 

[roundball]

I've often wondered if there should be a different distinction...instead of just non-Traditional and Traditional, a third category should be established called Purist.

Non-traditional by and large should be fairly clear;
Purist should be fairly clear and based upon historical records;

Then Traditional is everything in between...and it really is a long journey through the valley of Traditional. Pretty sure nobody decides to get into muzzleloading and on day-one is all the way to a purist level.

The first decision has to be made: If an inline is purchased then the distinction is clearly non-traditional.

If a TC Hawken is purchased, by comparing it to an inline as the non-traditional standard, it has to be Traditional because it certainly is not an inline, and it's certainly not period specific.

And there's the dilemma...the road we curently call Traditional is too long and too winding with too many potholes.

Starting out with a TC Hawken for example demonstrates a commitment to peek down the road of "Traditional" but many people, even here on this forum, scoff at TC Hawkens as not being traditional.

But in real life, with families and kids and mortgages, etc, etc, it can take a long, long time to get from a TC Hawken, to the end of the road where some people think Traditional lies, making everything they use personally out of tree bark and fern leaves, etc...but to me, that's the Purist level...the person has arrived.

However......if they drive their "trucks" to the rondy and carry their "perscription glasses", "heart medicine", "insulin", "toilet paper", etc, are they even yet a purist? No...and once you make the first concession, you slip back into the shifting, winding road of Traditional.

And the real answer is: Who cares !!
It should only matter inside the head of the individual who's pursuing whatever degree of interest he/she has, or has time to pursue, or can afford to pursue, etc.

Where am I?
Started with an inline, then switched to sidelock percussions, then switched to flintlocks...moving slowly down that road...have no interest in going to the extreme of becoming a purist...but may wind on down the traditional road a little further before I go to the big treestand in the sky.
...BUT...I've always said that as soon as I find a set of 2XL-Tall, fleece lined, Gore-tex covered, artificial buckskins I can wash & dry at home, I'll buy them on the spot!!

:::: :: :: :: :: :: ::

 

[Claude Mathis]

However......if they drive their "trucks" to the rondy and carry their "perscription glasses", "heart medicine", "insulin", "toilet paper", etc, are they even yet a purist? No...and once you make the first concession, you slip back into the shifting, winding road of Traditional.

That's why we aren't making distinctions for people - with the exception of juried events, which you have to option of not attending. And, even at juried events you may bring medication. Nobody wants you to die for the sake of history. ::

It should only matter inside the head of the individual who's pursuing whatever degree of interest he/she has, or has time to pursue, or can afford to pursue, etc.

You summed it up perfectly and that should be the end of it, but the debate will continue.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Nobody wants you to die for the sake of history.

No, but there's a few I could nominate to improve the breed's genetic future. :blah:

Isn't it paradoxical that it costs so much to portray a poor woodsman? :youcrazy:

The things we do for fun and fulfillment. :haha:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Isn't it paradoxical that it costs so much to portray a poor woodsman? :youcrazy:

The things we do for fun and fulfillment. :haha:

No kidding. I have modern shirts I try to keep real nice, but I spend more on a handmade shirt for my persona and then can't wait until it looks old and worn. :youcrazy:

 

[Claude Mathis]

So, are we still talking about "Traditional Muzzleloader Hunting", or should we move this thread? ::

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Maxiball;

As usual, on whatever forum, under whatever heading, who ever brings it up, the topic of our Period Correctness invariably stirs up the interest! It's always fun.

I like your statement "that NO ONE is really period correct in a traditional sense. In SPIRIT, yes, in reality NO!"

I won't go into the usual response that the rest of the fellows have already so aptly stated... I will relay a humorous slant along this topic line from last month's woodswalk at the local buckskinner's shoot.

One fellow remarked that, if you thought about it, even the typical production rifles of today, the T/C's, the Lymans and such are probably as good accuracy-wise as the typical rifles of yestyesteryear probably were. He submitted that the legendary excellence of the legendary marksmen of yesteryear were probably not representative of the average guy of those days with the average rifle. It was an unusual thought and I had to give the guy credit for thinking along those lines.

Then we got into the Period Correctness of all of us. The really humorous part was this... The fellow who started us thinking was pushing late 60's, maybe 70. A couple of others were 60's, I'm 53, one fellow was mid 40's, and one guy was 30ish. Now if you put aside the legendary things that Daniel Boone did, up in his 60's???, and if you talk what the average guy of those days did, well... one, maybe two of us would even still be out there as a frontiersman! We'd all be too dog gone old! We ourselves, not our gear, were actually the MOST period INcorrect things in the woods that day! We all had a real good laugh at ourselves! But we were sure having fun that day.

As you said, "In SPIRIT, yes, in reality NO!"

Regards to all,

Jerry.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I once shot an elephant in my buckskins. How he ever got in my buckskins I'll never know.

So, are we still talking about "Traditional Muzzleloader Hunting", or should we move this thread?

Naw, lets twist it.

How many folks actually hunt in period dress? I don't, but I wear "subdued" shades of olive and grey, with an orange vest. My hunting bag and accoutrements are as period correct as I know how to make them. Our Muzzleloading Only season is mid-December, and it can be 0

 

[musketman]

How many folks actually hunt in period dress?

I started out the door once and was stopped dead in my tracks...

Mrs. Musketman frown on me wearing buckskins while hunting deer, "But I had blaze orange bead work on it!"

Go figure...

 

[tg]

I think the only problem I see is when folks try to make claims that something is PC/traditional when it obviously and by a heavy weight of evidence is NOT, just to try and be a part of a level they have not quite reached yet, this can be confusing and missleading to others who are looking for the facts, and when thinking of PC/traditional think in terms of form and function, as few can own original equipment or exactly made replicas done in period materials and methods,most of us are stuck with modern steel barrels and steel locks...we can research and make PC choices in the styles of these for particular time periods/places, there are many such examples...the other option is to say nothing is really PC and put a large Siler and maple stock on a French Fusil......but then many who do this still call it PC....mostly do to a lack of research.

 

O.K..Ohhhh, kayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
Now everyone pay REAL CLOSE ATTENTION pleeeeeeeease.
I love debate, yes, even argument, BUT argument in the SCIENTFIC sense.
Not arguing with ones peers, not getting nasty and reading between the lines, or second guessing "whad-he-mean-by-that?" kind of infintile manure.
Here is my point, and it's MY point, and I'm not forcing MY point on anyone.
(drum roll please) THE POINT>>>>> is that not everyone can , wants to, spend the hard earned cash on a "period correct" rifles or "period correct" clothes.
This is the TRADITIONAL HUNTING thread, not the traditional ronnyvous thread.
I maintain that ANYONE that hunts with a traditonal type rifle, shotgun, whatever is hunting in the SPIRIT of the traditional hunter.
If you will all check the thread here it's the TRADITIONAL HUNTING section, not the P.C. persona section.
Got it?
Hunting that is.
I suggest that we all welcome ANYONE that hunts with a traditional "type" as a TRADITIONAL HUNTER.
Period.
I don't knock in-line hunters or hunters that use a Lyman Trade Rifle.
I hunt with two cousins that use in-lines. Sooooooooooooooooo what!
I WAS an in-line only person, but due to the influence of a LOT of FINE gentlemen here I got interested in p/c rifles and own 4 of 'em. I didn't get influenced by a bunch of foolish snobs looking down thier p.c. noses at me.
I still have an in-line, moderate the in-line section, but LOVE p/c flinters.
The point is you can influence people more with patience and understanding than by hurting feelings or making people feel inferior for the rifle they choose to hunt with.
Clear enough???????
I encourage DEBATE, NOT in fighting.

 

Can't stand argument for arguments sake.....it's a complete waste of my time. My choice is always the same, not to participate. I have better things to do.

Vic

 

[tg]

I think you have a valid point Maxi...however. throwing modern conicals at deer and sighting with modern sights is hardly in the "spirit" of the game as I see it, it is an attempt to get closer to the modern type of gear than the "traditional" type, I see know "traditional spirit" in useing a gun that may look a bit like one from the past and then try to use every modern convienience available to get the performance of a modern weapon...just one viewpoint..if ya gonna talka the talk then walka the walk.