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petrolium vs natural lube
- Thread starter Mr Nick
- Start date
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Saw this posting yesterday when it was new. Said to myself, "Self, this shouldbe be an interesting debate ::".
Used to use WD-40 for years, found it evaporated well from my bore and got some rust over extended time. Also, found my browning getting paler over time. Met a guy at the range that said WD-40 is a rust remover,,, and your browning IS nothing more than cosmetic rust! ( :hmm: ) I stopped using it. Switched to 3 in 1 Oil, messy, runny, and gummed up. Quit using that too.
Tried BB, better results on accuacy, clean-up, less swabing between shots, etc.
After the range, scalding hot water flush til clean, alcohol swab, and BB while barrel is still hot makes me happy. Once a month if not used, I run a BB patch down her again (just for insurance). No more Petro products for me except for moving parts lube. Outside of guns get waxed. :m2c:
Good question! :hatsoff:
Used to use WD-40 for years, found it evaporated well from my bore and got some rust over extended time. Also, found my browning getting paler over time. Met a guy at the range that said WD-40 is a rust remover,,, and your browning IS nothing more than cosmetic rust! ( :hmm: ) I stopped using it. Switched to 3 in 1 Oil, messy, runny, and gummed up. Quit using that too.
Tried BB, better results on accuacy, clean-up, less swabing between shots, etc.
After the range, scalding hot water flush til clean, alcohol swab, and BB while barrel is still hot makes me happy. Once a month if not used, I run a BB patch down her again (just for insurance). No more Petro products for me except for moving parts lube. Outside of guns get waxed. :m2c:
Good question! :hatsoff:
Tahquamenon
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2005
- Messages
- 825
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- 3
The basic concept here is "making a sincere effort to care for your weapon on a routine basis" versus neglecting and poor maintenance. No preservation method will take the place of neglect.
You will of course get many repies on this topic. Bottom line is they are your weapons, care for them the best you can with whichever method you are comfortable.
I have a two lube philosophy for Muzzleloading that I've been practicing for over 35 years.
1) Lubricants to long term protect my ML weapons from corrosion.
2) Lubricants for shooting/field purposes.
I am 200% certain that modern synthetic lubricants protect for corrosion vastly superior to natural lubricants in every case. I use synthetic lubes for all of my weapons and firearms. Muzzleloading weapons do not have a unique requirement for corrosion protection. If anything they deserve superior protection in every case due the corrosive nature of black powder and cleaning with hot soapy water.
I am also certain that natural lubes are the only option for shooting lubes and mix with BP and substitute fouling where synthetic lubes will tend to cause tar depending on the lube. There are some synthetic lubes with high flash points that also mix with BP.
For long term moisture displacing protection at the molecular level inside the bore (Same as my centerfire weapons):
Otis 085-Ultra Bore synthetic water displacing lubricant. (I did use Clenzoil in the bore for 30 years and switched to Otis 5 years ago based on a recommendation from a friend with the USN testing labs. Superb results thus far.).
http://www.otisgun.com
To prepare ML bore for shooting, swab the barrel with 99% isopropyl alcohol swabs (2-3) followed by dry patches. Swab the flash channel with alcohol pipe cleaner or q-tips.
Lube the nipple threads with choke tube grease and install the nipple. Lube the barrel with a natural lubed patch.
Ready for the field.
Prior to storage after the barrel is cleaned with boiling hot soapy & then clean water, dry patch, alcohol patch, dry patch, I use Butches Bore Shine (http://lymanproducts.com/butch/index.htm) patche followed by a dry patch and then saturated 085 Ultra Bore patch in the barrel. Butch's will remove any buildup or varnish and prep the bore perfectly clean state.
For long term moisture displacing protection at the molecular level outside the bore, gunstocks, triggers and locks (Same as my centerfire weapons):
Clenzoil. www.clenzoil.com
For shooting lubes for patches, conical and for keeping the bore lubed in the field:
Rooster Labs BP lubes, T/C NL1000 and Hornady Great Plains Lube.
www.roosterlabs.com
www.tcarms.com
www.hornady.com
:imo: :m2c: :thumbsup:
You will of course get many repies on this topic. Bottom line is they are your weapons, care for them the best you can with whichever method you are comfortable.
I have a two lube philosophy for Muzzleloading that I've been practicing for over 35 years.
1) Lubricants to long term protect my ML weapons from corrosion.
2) Lubricants for shooting/field purposes.
I am 200% certain that modern synthetic lubricants protect for corrosion vastly superior to natural lubricants in every case. I use synthetic lubes for all of my weapons and firearms. Muzzleloading weapons do not have a unique requirement for corrosion protection. If anything they deserve superior protection in every case due the corrosive nature of black powder and cleaning with hot soapy water.
I am also certain that natural lubes are the only option for shooting lubes and mix with BP and substitute fouling where synthetic lubes will tend to cause tar depending on the lube. There are some synthetic lubes with high flash points that also mix with BP.
For long term moisture displacing protection at the molecular level inside the bore (Same as my centerfire weapons):
Otis 085-Ultra Bore synthetic water displacing lubricant. (I did use Clenzoil in the bore for 30 years and switched to Otis 5 years ago based on a recommendation from a friend with the USN testing labs. Superb results thus far.).
http://www.otisgun.com
To prepare ML bore for shooting, swab the barrel with 99% isopropyl alcohol swabs (2-3) followed by dry patches. Swab the flash channel with alcohol pipe cleaner or q-tips.
Lube the nipple threads with choke tube grease and install the nipple. Lube the barrel with a natural lubed patch.
Ready for the field.
Prior to storage after the barrel is cleaned with boiling hot soapy & then clean water, dry patch, alcohol patch, dry patch, I use Butches Bore Shine (http://lymanproducts.com/butch/index.htm) patche followed by a dry patch and then saturated 085 Ultra Bore patch in the barrel. Butch's will remove any buildup or varnish and prep the bore perfectly clean state.
For long term moisture displacing protection at the molecular level outside the bore, gunstocks, triggers and locks (Same as my centerfire weapons):
Clenzoil. www.clenzoil.com
For shooting lubes for patches, conical and for keeping the bore lubed in the field:
Rooster Labs BP lubes, T/C NL1000 and Hornady Great Plains Lube.
www.roosterlabs.com
www.tcarms.com
www.hornady.com
:imo: :m2c: :thumbsup:
Tried some. Glycerin is basically liquid sugar. In my rust test it was the first to start and worst as far as overall rust, and it turns to gum when burned. Dead end as far as my test results.
stumpkiller: I read all the above and agree with most. Now this will start something, yesterday at the range a shooter said he was using (Udder Butter) claims it was working fine and the lanolin was good for the skin as well. Anybody done this before. I know the cows like it. Next what properties does lanolin have that we BP shooters could put to good use?
Fox :thumbsup:
Fox :thumbsup:
For a long time (15 years) I used mutton tallow in my lube (with equal parts of Crisco and beeswax) and it seemed to work fine. It was a copy of "Old Zip" that is a long standing patch lube. But in a rifle I had to swab after every shot. Then I stumbled across Bore Butter and fell back in love with my rifles and sold the Bess. :haha: All I wanted with my Moose Snot was a non-stinky lube that mimicked the multi-shot capability of that.
Never tried straight lanolin, and it would certainly be worth an experiment. I bet $1 someone here has tried it.
Seems that someone here was using Bag Balm last summer but I don't recall who.
About anything wet and/or slippery will work. This ain't rocket science, here.
Never tried straight lanolin, and it would certainly be worth an experiment. I bet $1 someone here has tried it.
Seems that someone here was using Bag Balm last summer but I don't recall who.
About anything wet and/or slippery will work. This ain't rocket science, here.
"About anything wet and/or slippery will work. This ain't rocket science, here."
Hows about Preperation H. Maybe it will Shrink yer groups. :crackup:
Hows about Preperation H. Maybe it will Shrink yer groups. :crackup:
Nick Water soluable oils are severly hydrotreated,a whole different animal than regular petro oils.Most water soluable oils make poor choice for bore protection,mainly because the cutting oils have added stuff in em that really aint great for muzzle loaders if left in the bore for a couple of days.Makes a decent patch lube when mixed with water and keeps fouling soft.
If you shot sumthin like clp or wd40 with out swaben the bore between shots you would have a very diffacult time loading the next shot,by the 3rd shot you will have a stuck ball most of the time.
Like they said,if you use a petro oil like clp or wd-40 or sumthin on that line to protect your bore from rust remove it from the bore with rubben alkey or a moose milk or even just dry patch it out before you shoot.Just make sure you snap a couple of caps if its a sidelock to dry out the powder camber before you load.Wet powder is hard to ignite ::
I think you will find if your gonna hunt with your frontstuffer natural lubes on the patch are the best way to go IMHO :hatsoff:
If you shot sumthin like clp or wd40 with out swaben the bore between shots you would have a very diffacult time loading the next shot,by the 3rd shot you will have a stuck ball most of the time.
Like they said,if you use a petro oil like clp or wd-40 or sumthin on that line to protect your bore from rust remove it from the bore with rubben alkey or a moose milk or even just dry patch it out before you shoot.Just make sure you snap a couple of caps if its a sidelock to dry out the powder camber before you load.Wet powder is hard to ignite ::
I think you will find if your gonna hunt with your frontstuffer natural lubes on the patch are the best way to go IMHO :hatsoff:
RunningBear
36 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Messages
- 77
- Reaction score
- 9
How about Neets shoe oil?I've read some guys like this as a lube.RunningBear. :hmm:
I ask again, what do you think is in there that would be bad for a barrel? If the sulpher caused rusting or corrosion problems, my lathe would be all messed up. It sits in a bath of the stuff a lot. There is sulpher in lots of the top motor oils. Open a can of Haveline sometime. Seen any corroded engine internals lately? It does not cause any problem. Butter is an excellant cutting lubricant and so is lard. The fat content is desirable, not bad. The clorine to keep things from going rancid is good unless you are only mixing enough for each session. The wetting agent is soap/surfactant. I don't think they add enough, so I add more in the form of Murphy's Oil Soap. Moose milk made with cutting oils will not harm a barrel in anyway used wet, much less used like a lot of folks do. I spray a strip of patch material and let it dry. I am adjusting the mixture to the point where an acceptable slick patch material is created.
The ideas behind using a patch lube are pretty simple. One, stop the patch from catching fire and burning the woods down. 2, help with accuracy. 3, help keep the fouling soft for those that don't swab between shots. You can collect hornets nest material and put a small amount over the powder to protect the patch if you wish to answer the first requirement. The accuracy thing is different from rifle to rifle. In my 36, changing the patch completely changes where the gun shoots and radically changes group size. It is almost as sensitive about patch lube. It really likes Moose Milk. My Hawken doesn't care if you use a spit patch, moose milk, or pre-lubed commercial patches. In it, you can switch between 490 and 495 balls with no noticable change on target. You need .018 pillow ticking soaked in diluted liquid alox and let dry to get it's attention, and you need a mallet to start a 495 ball with that patch/lube combo. The Mountain rifle so far likes Moose Milk on a tight fitting patch/ball combo. The flinter likes pre-lubed patches and you can't tell the difference between cut at the muzzle or not. I swab between shots, running both sides of a wet patch and both sides of a dry patch. The keep the fouling soft idea does not apply to me. When I shot the other way, BB or RIG was what I used most often for about 20 years or so.
The ideas behind using a patch lube are pretty simple. One, stop the patch from catching fire and burning the woods down. 2, help with accuracy. 3, help keep the fouling soft for those that don't swab between shots. You can collect hornets nest material and put a small amount over the powder to protect the patch if you wish to answer the first requirement. The accuracy thing is different from rifle to rifle. In my 36, changing the patch completely changes where the gun shoots and radically changes group size. It is almost as sensitive about patch lube. It really likes Moose Milk. My Hawken doesn't care if you use a spit patch, moose milk, or pre-lubed commercial patches. In it, you can switch between 490 and 495 balls with no noticable change on target. You need .018 pillow ticking soaked in diluted liquid alox and let dry to get it's attention, and you need a mallet to start a 495 ball with that patch/lube combo. The Mountain rifle so far likes Moose Milk on a tight fitting patch/ball combo. The flinter likes pre-lubed patches and you can't tell the difference between cut at the muzzle or not. I swab between shots, running both sides of a wet patch and both sides of a dry patch. The keep the fouling soft idea does not apply to me. When I shot the other way, BB or RIG was what I used most often for about 20 years or so.
Didnt say it was bad for a patch lube.Done the dutch thing already and have moved on.When i first started the water soulable oil my first mix was a 7 to 1 in a tin coffie[url] can.In[/url] 2 weeks that can was completly covered with rust on the inside.I think plain water would have faired better.
If you swabed your bore with straight cutting oil it could draw moisture out of the air i would think on humid days.im not tryen to talk anybody out of using cutting oils in moose milk,just wanted to let people know that sum,not all cutting oils do have things added to em.If you think they are good things thats fine with me ::
If you swabed your bore with straight cutting oil it could draw moisture out of the air i would think on humid days.im not tryen to talk anybody out of using cutting oils in moose milk,just wanted to let people know that sum,not all cutting oils do have things added to em.If you think they are good things thats fine with me ::
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Runner sumthin to consider about your lathe tip and the motor you refered to with the havoline is black powder fouling isnt got any thing to do with either one.
If you want to see what effect the type of cutting oil your using has on your rifle bore go shoot sum black powder and clean the bore as you normally would and dry patch.Now run a sloppy wet patch of your favorite moose milk on a jag down the[url] bore.Slide[/url] it in and out a couple of times and leave the patch on the jag with your ramrod in the bore all the way to the breech.Let it set for 5 days and pull the ramrod out and give the patch a good looken over.My guess is it will be redish brown or green and sum black,all are corrosion in one form or another.Could pit the breech bad enuf that you may have just ruined it,or it may be perfectly ok ::.Really if you just checked it 24 hours after cleaning it would be the safe bet.
There is nuthin wrong in using cutting oils as patch lube as i said,but it would make a piss n poor rust preventer in a muzzle loader bore IMHO.Now thats just an opinion,every bodys got one ya know :haha:
If you want to see what effect the type of cutting oil your using has on your rifle bore go shoot sum black powder and clean the bore as you normally would and dry patch.Now run a sloppy wet patch of your favorite moose milk on a jag down the[url] bore.Slide[/url] it in and out a couple of times and leave the patch on the jag with your ramrod in the bore all the way to the breech.Let it set for 5 days and pull the ramrod out and give the patch a good looken over.My guess is it will be redish brown or green and sum black,all are corrosion in one form or another.Could pit the breech bad enuf that you may have just ruined it,or it may be perfectly ok ::.Really if you just checked it 24 hours after cleaning it would be the safe bet.
There is nuthin wrong in using cutting oils as patch lube as i said,but it would make a piss n poor rust preventer in a muzzle loader bore IMHO.Now thats just an opinion,every bodys got one ya know :haha:
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Everyone agrees that you don't want to use a petro-based lube on shooting patches due to a resulting fouling problem.
The question is, if one uses a petro-based product for cleaning/storage/rust prevention, how is the substance removed from the bore, prior to shooting again, so as to avoid the fouling problem. Taqu. suggests that isopropyl alcohol will effectively remove the petro-based substance. Although long term experience with this method is persuasive, I am not totally convinced of that and would like some documentation to support it, and/or any other possible alternatives to get the job done and the bore ready to shoot again after storage...???!!
(This is not an original query, I read it elsewhere posted by a former "anonymous" member here.)
Regards, sse
The question is, if one uses a petro-based product for cleaning/storage/rust prevention, how is the substance removed from the bore, prior to shooting again, so as to avoid the fouling problem. Taqu. suggests that isopropyl alcohol will effectively remove the petro-based substance. Although long term experience with this method is persuasive, I am not totally convinced of that and would like some documentation to support it, and/or any other possible alternatives to get the job done and the bore ready to shoot again after storage...???!!
(This is not an original query, I read it elsewhere posted by a former "anonymous" member here.)
Regards, sse
I patch the barrel dry and run a patch down the bore on the jag before I pop a couple of caps. The caps will blow anything out of the channel and will burn the dry patch if the channel is open. I usually run a q-tiop thru the channel before the caps. I don't use a solvent to clean the oil out of the barrel, but since I patch between every shot, fouling is no problem anyway.
Actually, you would be wrong on your expectations. My guns have already been thru more than a week each of having nothing but Jerry L's version of Moosemilk used in them as a test. I did not leave a sloppy wet patch in the bore, but I did patch the barrels with a wet patch and leave it that way. I believe Jerry protects his guns with it and nothing else. I don't know what Dutch has to say about anything, since I refuse to pay for his material.
The Moose Milk recipes have to be the most popular home made patch lubes at this time. They are not that popular because they do not work and make barrels rust. They are that popular because they work very well.
I use a lot of stuff. I use Ballistol and CLP with CLP being the favorite for protection and storage. I use BB, Rig, and Moose Milk for patch lube.
Actually, you would be wrong on your expectations. My guns have already been thru more than a week each of having nothing but Jerry L's version of Moosemilk used in them as a test. I did not leave a sloppy wet patch in the bore, but I did patch the barrels with a wet patch and leave it that way. I believe Jerry protects his guns with it and nothing else. I don't know what Dutch has to say about anything, since I refuse to pay for his material.
The Moose Milk recipes have to be the most popular home made patch lubes at this time. They are not that popular because they do not work and make barrels rust. They are that popular because they work very well.
I use a lot of stuff. I use Ballistol and CLP with CLP being the favorite for protection and storage. I use BB, Rig, and Moose Milk for patch lube.
