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Picking out new rifle help needed
- Thread starter Thunder14
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54ball said:
Still absolutely agree!
I haven't built a Kibler kit but I have built more than a few kits ranging from factory made versions to the "box of rough parts" offered by some of the best parts kit suppliers in the US.Scota4570 said:
I've seen dozens of kits built by private individuals and the ones that were built in 20 hours looked like they were built in 20 hours.
Putting it mildly, they were functional junk that I would be ashamed to carry, let alone own.
That leads me to say, if someone wants something that looks better than junk, they better plan on spending at least 40 hours on a factory type kit like a Traditions, and over 120 hours on a typical "box of rough parts" style kit.
As I said, I have never built a Kibler but unless it is what I call a gun, "built in the white", meaning it is totally built but left unfinished, there is no way a person could finish it in 20 hours. (I notice Jim wants another $650 for this option which would raise the total cost to about $1600.)
Even a "in the white" rifle takes longer than 20 hours to finish the metal and wood if it is going to be done right.
I say all of this because people should know that putting a longrifle together isn't a two or three day job if they are going to do it right.
I would hate to think of someone spending almost $1000 and then either giving up on the build because there is a lot of work they had not planned on doing.
Good points, I think the major hurdle here is an individual examining his/ her skill sets and deciding if one want's to build or by.
Black Hand
Cannon
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Some people can take $1200-1500 worth of parts and make a $300 gun. We all need to know our limitations - if you can't do the job yourself, pay someone who can. Don't complain about the price either - most builders are making about $10/hour to build you a piece of art that will put meat in the freezer...
:hmm: I dont get it.....the Kibler In The White kit. Is it not pretty much ready to stain/brown? Or is there more inletting etc needs doing? I have built a few CVA/Traditions kits and they were not difficult so I'm sure I can do it...just wondering exactly what "In the White" means? I hoping for a Kibler or similar soon.
In the white means completely ready to apply whatever finish you want. Stock is sanded, whiskered and good to go.
All parts are fitted, filed and finished as is the barrel being draw filed. Again, just apply whatever finish you desire to the wood, lock and barrel.
If you have done a traditions kit... Which is absolutely no comparison to a Kibler rifle in terms of quality, even with a standard Kibler rifle you should be fine. Jim has a great Q&A set up on his site, recommend you give it a visit.
All parts are fitted, filed and finished as is the barrel being draw filed. Again, just apply whatever finish you desire to the wood, lock and barrel.
If you have done a traditions kit... Which is absolutely no comparison to a Kibler rifle in terms of quality, even with a standard Kibler rifle you should be fine. Jim has a great Q&A set up on his site, recommend you give it a visit.
54ball
62 Cal.
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Building a rifle is a lot like slowly boiling a frog in water. He don't know he's in hot water.
As you go from rough blank to a rifle your work gets more careful. As you approach the finish line things become more delicate and the work should be finer and finer.
If you try to "hoss it" when it's delicate....things break.
This is a big problem with the semi-inlet kits like Chambers and TOW. They are still pretty rough requiring some substantial work but since they are shaped, they are delicate.
Example...
It's easier for me to just cut in a new lock inlet vs "fitting" a lock into one that's almost. Having to take that 16th off here or a 32nd off there a...it's just a pain. I'd rather start off with an inlet that's good from the start.
Fitting and moving the barrel....
These are made with barrel inlets undersized. The barrel does not fit. Not only that the breech is rounded from the router. So you have to completely finish the barrel inlet at the breech and fit the barrel whole length. Most of the time you have to move the whole barrel back to meet the lock and have good vent location.
The breech is the hardest to fit and the most critical. With pre-carve it's already is shaped and has a channel already so you have to match that with delicate work and fit the barrel on whippy delicate sock that is as stable as a pool noodle.
In a blank the barrel is fit while the wood is 2 1/2 to 4" thick and stable plus it's fit at once from muzzle to breech. Some even fit them with the breech pug and tang in place (Jack Brooks).
What I'm getting at is a Track, TVM, Chambers and others are actually harder in many respects than a blank build but they do look like a rifle.
Chambers sets are the best in this class because the parts are selected and designed to actually fit with the rifle. Some of the others are a hodge podge or pot lock...so it's a constant battle making it all work out.
Kiblers....
Jim is a young guy as far as traditional rifle builders go. He is an accomplished builder in the traditional manner but he is also up to date in technology, For example, Bobby Hoyt and Ed Rayl both super guys but they will not communicate via computer, You have to call them on the phone.
Jim noticed than many "kits" are being bought but few finished rifle were being shown. Ever notice on the forums that builds are started, then nothing?
Mr. Kibler designed these kits to be what many think a kit should be. These are finer finished than anything Traditions, TC or CVA ever made, you know the "easy" kits.
With that said.....
My mentor had a rifle (built from a blank) nearly in the white on the bench. Every thing was pretty much fit together and it was nearly to finished shape. He said...This is what makes or breaks a good rifle, the final fit and finish. This is where many fail.
A Kibler is basically a built rifle but it's not finished. All the major work is done even the pins are drilled. I mentioned a pre-carve earlier with a 16th here a 32nd there for fitment. A Kibler...a 64th fine fine work is required to get it properly finished.
I have been involved with 5-6 day building classes. These fellows bring Chambers and the better TOW kits. A Kibler Mountain Rifle was brought.
The rifle could have been shot Tuesday morning. On the others the barrels and tangs were not fit but the Kibler was shootable. That fellow spent the remainder of the class making and fitting a iron patch box for his rifle.
In closing.
A guy orders a standard parts set, opens the box...
Wow! this just a big box of parts nothing fits...I'll mess this up. So he puts in a closet or sends to someone to put together.
A guy orders a Kibler opens the box...
Wow! this is beautiful I'll mess this up. So he puts it in the closet or sends it to someone to put together.
As you go from rough blank to a rifle your work gets more careful. As you approach the finish line things become more delicate and the work should be finer and finer.
If you try to "hoss it" when it's delicate....things break.
This is a big problem with the semi-inlet kits like Chambers and TOW. They are still pretty rough requiring some substantial work but since they are shaped, they are delicate.
Example...
It's easier for me to just cut in a new lock inlet vs "fitting" a lock into one that's almost. Having to take that 16th off here or a 32nd off there a...it's just a pain. I'd rather start off with an inlet that's good from the start.
Fitting and moving the barrel....
These are made with barrel inlets undersized. The barrel does not fit. Not only that the breech is rounded from the router. So you have to completely finish the barrel inlet at the breech and fit the barrel whole length. Most of the time you have to move the whole barrel back to meet the lock and have good vent location.
The breech is the hardest to fit and the most critical. With pre-carve it's already is shaped and has a channel already so you have to match that with delicate work and fit the barrel on whippy delicate sock that is as stable as a pool noodle.
In a blank the barrel is fit while the wood is 2 1/2 to 4" thick and stable plus it's fit at once from muzzle to breech. Some even fit them with the breech pug and tang in place (Jack Brooks).
What I'm getting at is a Track, TVM, Chambers and others are actually harder in many respects than a blank build but they do look like a rifle.
Chambers sets are the best in this class because the parts are selected and designed to actually fit with the rifle. Some of the others are a hodge podge or pot lock...so it's a constant battle making it all work out.
Kiblers....
Jim is a young guy as far as traditional rifle builders go. He is an accomplished builder in the traditional manner but he is also up to date in technology, For example, Bobby Hoyt and Ed Rayl both super guys but they will not communicate via computer, You have to call them on the phone.
Jim noticed than many "kits" are being bought but few finished rifle were being shown. Ever notice on the forums that builds are started, then nothing?
Mr. Kibler designed these kits to be what many think a kit should be. These are finer finished than anything Traditions, TC or CVA ever made, you know the "easy" kits.
With that said.....
My mentor had a rifle (built from a blank) nearly in the white on the bench. Every thing was pretty much fit together and it was nearly to finished shape. He said...This is what makes or breaks a good rifle, the final fit and finish. This is where many fail.
A Kibler is basically a built rifle but it's not finished. All the major work is done even the pins are drilled. I mentioned a pre-carve earlier with a 16th here a 32nd there for fitment. A Kibler...a 64th fine fine work is required to get it properly finished.
I have been involved with 5-6 day building classes. These fellows bring Chambers and the better TOW kits. A Kibler Mountain Rifle was brought.
The rifle could have been shot Tuesday morning. On the others the barrels and tangs were not fit but the Kibler was shootable. That fellow spent the remainder of the class making and fitting a iron patch box for his rifle.
In closing.
A guy orders a standard parts set, opens the box...
Wow! this just a big box of parts nothing fits...I'll mess this up. So he puts in a closet or sends to someone to put together.
A guy orders a Kibler opens the box...
Wow! this is beautiful I'll mess this up. So he puts it in the closet or sends it to someone to put together.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi,
Everybody hopes to find a deal, sometimes we do find one.
You can buy a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in kit form, and with care and dedication, you can build a gun that will shoot as good as anybody else can.
While the Lyman has good bones to start with, you will have to upgrade the rifle with certain parts, which will add to the cost of the rifle.
Good luck on your journey, as many of us have travelled that path already.
Best regards!
Fred
Everybody hopes to find a deal, sometimes we do find one.
You can buy a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in kit form, and with care and dedication, you can build a gun that will shoot as good as anybody else can.
While the Lyman has good bones to start with, you will have to upgrade the rifle with certain parts, which will add to the cost of the rifle.
Good luck on your journey, as many of us have travelled that path already.
Best regards!
Fred
Micah Clark
45 Cal.
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54 Ball has a great analysis of rifle building kits vs Kibler . . .
I just wish I could find some of these guys who buy a kit from TVM or Chambers and put it in the closet never to finish . . .
I'd generously offer 50 cents on the dollar for one of those set asides. :grin: :grin: :grin:
I just wish I could find some of these guys who buy a kit from TVM or Chambers and put it in the closet never to finish . . .
I'd generously offer 50 cents on the dollar for one of those set asides. :grin: :grin: :grin:
And I'd pay you the same to build it for me :grin:
That box of parts kit is still going to cost at least $800. Then you spend at least 120 hours putting it together. Or you could spend 120 hours cooking french fries at McDonalds. About $12 per hour around here. $1440. That comes to $2240. You can buy a decent rifle for that. Don't forget the $1000 to $5000 or more for tools and the room in your house that becomes the workshop. You don't save money by building. Even one of the Kibler kits. If you want to have a nice gun, save up the money and buy it. Don't build a gun unless building a gun is what you want to do.
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I purchased a TC flintlock at the local gun show just to see if I might like it as I shoot and have many caplocks. The TC fires reliably and 99% of time. Only time it flashes is when I neglect the proper procedures. It is a cheap gun but it served its purpose, hooked me on flintlocks! Now I have a Jim Kibler Colonial kit on the way. Your best served to save for a custom gun. I wouldn't throw 600 at another production gun like Lyman, Pedersoli, ect.
My two cents worth, I have been building muzzleloaders for 40+years and can say that you will get what you pay for regardless of who or where it may come from. My average scratch built flinter starts at $700-$900 in parts alone,with a precarved P grade stock. The PP+ stock quality makes for steeper price. A stock blank really adds price with time put into inletting and shaping. If what you are looking for is an inexpensive muzzleloader then go with a production gun kit. If you want a tack driver that is also a family heirloom, save your bucks, do the research on gun styles and the modern gun makers. With one of kind muzzleloaders the builder should have proofed and got it hitting on center before offering for sale. That is one reason the price is very hefty. A partially assembled gun kit will take the novice builder at least 30 hours to complete to a quality level, in my experience. What's your time worth?
Pete G
76 Cal.
Buy what you are going to end up with. If that means saving a while longer, so be it.
I can't afford cheap guns.
I can't afford cheap guns.
One of the best rifles I've owned is a .54 J&S Hawken replica built for me by a friend. Fits me like an old, soft glove and it shoots center too. I already had the parts and with my skill level I can easily take $300 worth of parts and turn them into a $100 rifle and he knew that. That rifle has made a lot of meat and won a lot of plunder over the years and I wouldn't swap it for a whole herd of spotted ponies.
Of course, he said he had a belt pistol in the works for me in the same caliber too, but that was over 20 years ago and it ain't done yet, so I guess he prob'ly forgot.
Of course, he said he had a belt pistol in the works for me in the same caliber too, but that was over 20 years ago and it ain't done yet, so I guess he prob'ly forgot.
Rockvillerich
Pilgrim
I'd started by having an established gunmaker help me with my first from scratch build. It took quite a while, working one day a week with the builder, and doing some "homework" on my own. I learned a ton, and ended up with a pretty nice flintlock rifle that I was proud of, and couldn't really have afforded to buy. Good luck on yours!
Ron Nance
32 Cal.
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Many, many, many, way to many years ago I built a Hawkins rifle from a TC kit. Next I built a 12 ga. Side x side from a CVA kit, then a pistol from a unknown mfg. kit. In 2001 with a great deal of help from a very good friend I built a French trade gun, 62 cal., from TOW. Back then they stated that their suggested list of parts to build it was just that and not a kit. I relized that I was not a gun maker and although each gun was better than the last I was not skilled to build the next. The very good friend, Wick Ellerbe, built the rifle, a Southern Va., 54 cal. Longrifle. The rifle is a work of art and can be seen in the Sept./Oct 2016 Muzzleloader mag.in a article about Ellerbe. I have said all this to show that I have been there. If you believe you have the skills to build a rifle you will be proud of then by all means buy the parts or a good kit and go for it. Do not and I repeat do not buy what I call a factory kit such as TC, CVA ect... You can never tell, it may turn out that you have a knack for building. I honestly believe you would better served to save your money and buy the very best kit you can, if you descide to go that way or find a good built gun or a builder you like and can afford and have it built. Buy the most gun you can afford and remember you are buying a tool that will last you for years and you should be proud to be seen with. I am now off my soap box. Best of luck.
Black Hand
Cannon
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You need a handful of basic tools to build a gun - certainly nowhere near $1000, much less $5000...
A few chisels, files, rasps, sandpaper, drill & bits, taps, vice with padded jaws and a mallet.
The Pedersoli Blue Ridge Hunter from Cabela's fits your budget, in percussion https://www.cabelas.com/product/Pedersoli-Blue-Ridge-Percussion-Rifles/1608547.uts?slotId=1
It's about 10% higher when you get it in flintlock https://www.cabelas.com/product/Pedersoli-Blue-Ridge-Flintlock-Rifles/1608552.uts?slotId=2
Sometimes...., in January, Cabela's puts then on sale.
LD
It's about 10% higher when you get it in flintlock https://www.cabelas.com/product/Pedersoli-Blue-Ridge-Flintlock-Rifles/1608552.uts?slotId=2
Sometimes...., in January, Cabela's puts then on sale.
LD
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